"It's too sexy" .. drawing the line for modesty in anime

[EireWolf]

Personally, I don't have a problem with nudity in itself. I'm an artist, and I've taken Figure Drawing classes. There's no time for lust in that class -- it's work! It's kinda' weird at first seeing a nude person, just because society doesn't accept it as normal, and that taboo is ingrained into us from an early age. But really, nudity in itself is not sexual or lust-inducing (for me); it's... pure. God created us without clothing; it was only in the Fall that nudity became shameful.

But I digress.

In anime, nudity alone doesn't bother me. If it's intended to be lust-inducing, even if it doesn't produce that effect in me, it bothers me. Same goes for fully clothed -- if something is intended to induce lust (or any other sin), it's not good.

As for that article -- *sigh*. Perhaps it will help some people. I agree that people shouldn't dress to cause lust. And some people probably need specific guidelines to that end. But I don't think we need to dress like nuns, either. That article bothered me most, I think, because it seems to be giving us one more "law" to live by, when Christ has set us free from the Law. That does not mean, of course, that we can flaunt our freedom and do whatever we want. But we should live by the Spirit -- not by a list of rules for how to dress. We do need to keep our fellow brothers and sisters in mind, in everything we do, and avoid causing others to stumble. But a list of strict rules of dress, were I less mature in my faith, might cause me to stumble.

[Uriah]

I read THIS article yesterday and it really got me thinking: where should we draw the line with modesty in anime... not only what we watch, but also in what we draw - the example we're setting for CHRISTIAN anime! I told my friend's mom about the CAA one time and she said that she didn't like anime in any form because female characters were almost always drawn what she called "too sexy". And looking back on this site, sometimes when I see a picture from (example) Neon Genesis Evangelion, I think "thats doesnt seem like a very christian outfit. And yet here it is on the site, maybe the biggest, most authoritative christian anime site out there.

And I've seen worse here than the example I mentioned before.. look around the first few pages of the bishoujo pic thread and there was a pretty shocking image (to me). So now my question to you, fellow CAAers, is... what's shocking to you? Where do you draw the line in what you watch, in what you show others on a christian site, in what you draw?

It's really hard to shock me, I'v seen it all...

However, I agree with jedisonic. I'v turned down countless anime because of horrible dressed female characters, and sadly, a good 90% of anime has just this.

All the female characters I draw are well dressed, I never have done a swimsuit picture, and if I ever did, it would be a modest one piece.
Shorts and skirts won't go beond a few inches above the knees, and no cleavage is to be shown, and no dresses blowing up in the wind... EVER. That's my personal code for my art, and I do believe for Christian artists, they should at least see to these things.

Though I do not strongly object to things like short shorts, this is a Christian website, and if we're to set standards, I think we need to be as modest as possible.

There's my two cents..

[Rachel]

I'll post something tomorrow after I've had time to think of a way to put it that makes some sort of sense.

[Arnobius]

Well then I have a question for you guys on something that's hard for me to decide. Honestly, do you think Faye is betrayed as an erotic looking person due to her "fashion"? And do you think it's too much in that first episode with Vicious in it, when she's captured. Of course, I'm talking about the Cowboy Bebop series right now.^_^

I'm not totally sure what you mean by betrayed. I mean the chara was designed that way with fanservice in mind and I think the episode 5 (Vicious' first appearance) was deliberate with the low cut garb and the "Gainax Bounce".

Difference between live action and anime is in live action it's possible that the director just decided to run with a mistake. In anime, everything that is there is there deliberately.

But if you mean "betrayed" in the sense that she could have been just as good a character with more clothing, then I'd say yes. She could have been more plausible if she wasn't dressed like a prostitute (Armitage III was similar in that respect. Why have the heroine of a serious story dress like a bondage queen?)

[Kaligraphic]

Where do I draw the line? I don't.

Whoah, there, don't assume you know what I mean yet, that was only the first sentence of my answer!

I typically only watch anime that I like. (Well, unless I have a specific external reason.) I like robots if they're done well, fit in the universe, and make sense. I like cool swordplay, like in Samurai 7. I like clever people, funny situations, and characters I can accept as protagonists.

I like things that are derived from God. Did you know that Superman is based on God? Batman? Spiderman? Hercules? Samson? God's strength. Hercule Poirot is based on God's wisdom; Naruto's ability to use the Nine-tails' power is based on the power of Christ, and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Even in such a show as Love Hina, Urashima Keitaro is based on God's love.

On the other side, you have stuff like movies based on people telling lies and trying to get away with stuff - I can't identify with such characters. I simply don't like protagonists who end up being, for me, villains. I've seen some shows and movies where the so-called "villain" ends up being more forthright and likeable than the "hero". Where a character displays the antithesis of an attribute of God, I naturally dislike that character in that area.

Now, if a show is designed around a lot of fanservice/nudity/questionable elements, that fact will pervade the entire design. (The focus will either be on characters or curves, but not both. A 24-minute show can't devote 15 minutes an episode to the story and then another 15 minutes to showing animated skin. It doesn't work. If you want to have a good show, it has to be somewhat believable. (setting aside stuff like flying battleships and giant robots)

Thus, in the series that I like, I don't really run into too much excess, and in the ones that I don't, well, I didn't like them anyway.



Oh, and:
[quote="Kenshin17"]Did I mention Kimonos are so cute ]
Quoted for truth.

[uc pseudonym]

This post is incomplete, in that it does not fully address the original topic, but rather one offshoot of it. Some issues, however, I feel the need to at least touch upon.

Some people seem very critical of the author, whoever they may be. While criticism itself can be a positive and improving force, I hope that all of us can be supportive of another Christian making an effort to improve the world. If one upholds, for example, Focus on the Family, I believe one has the same Christian obligation to uphold this unknown author.

Being a bit of a writer myself, I simply couldn't make myself read all of that article in which the author obviously thought his points weren't strong enough to be communicated without the use of massive font and excessive bold print, but, from just skimming it, I'll make my comments on the subject at hand.

I disagree. My thought is that the author was writing in a fairly common style that, according to some study, better keeps the attention of youth. Hence the goal was to reach the target audiance, not bolster weak points. Personally I would have preferred it in a normal fashion, but I am hardly the target audiance.

About the actual topic I will remain mute.

Where do I draw the line? I don't.

Burn, you heathen godless monster. This upset me so much I couldn't bring myself to read the rest of your post.

I like things that are derived from God. Did you know that Superman is based on God? Batman? Spiderman? Hercules? Samson? God's strength. Hercule Poirot is based on God's wisdom]

I am not certain I entirely agree with the parallels you draw. In the sense that Tolkien orcs were based upon elves, yes, but I am uncertain how that changes anything of significance. God created everything, so hence everything is based upon Him, but that does not mean it is Godly.

On the other side, you have stuff like movies based on people telling lies and trying to get away with stuff - I can't identify with such characters. I simply don't like protagonists who end up being, for me, villains. I've seen some shows and movies where the so-called "villain" ends up being more forthright and likeable than the "hero". Where a character displays the antithesis of an attribute of God, I naturally dislike that character in that area.

In terms of how much I like a character on certain attributes, I agree with you. However, ultimately I would have to say that most anime are meant to be reflections of reality, and hence it is only natural that all characters are mixtures of heros and villains. To outline perfect "good guys" and evil-incarnate "bad guys" is a terribly flawed worldview.

[John316]

Where do I draw the line? I don't.

Burn, you heathen godless monster. This upset me so much I couldn't bring myself to read the rest of your post.

I know! He's such a monster! His love for kimonos just shows the depths of his depravity!

[Chazz]

Burn, you heathen godless monster. This upset me so much I couldn't bring myself to read the rest of your post.

wow. conflict. Someone give me a video camera

[Raiden no Kishi]

Would you mind not spamming, Chazz?

Rai

[Chazz]

I like things that are derived from God. Did you know that Superman is based on God? Batman? Spiderman? Hercules? Samson? God's strength. Hercule Poirot is based on God's wisdom; Naruto's ability to use the Nine-tails' power is based on the power of Christ, and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Even in such a show as Love Hina, Urashima Keitaro is based on God's love.

I don't put my thoughts into words very well when i'm agitated, but-

I could say a toilet is derived from god because it "washes away bad things" (boy did that sound odd) but the thing is, if you look hard enough, you're always going to find something. People at my church say "I randomly opened the bible and found this passage that fits my situation exactly!" : /
I could open up the bible right now and find a passage and think long enough and twist the meaning so it fits for me. That's what people do, and that's what the've been doing for thousands of years.

Now on to more disproving-
Superman is based on god huh? The way I see it, Superman saves people's lives even if he doesn't like them, while god floods the freakin earth and kills everyone if he gets **** off. Not so similar anymore, are they?

it's easy to put 2 and 2 together and get 4. but doing so out loud just makes you look stupid, you know? some of the so called connections i hear are so far fatched that it isn't even funny. for instance- Linking homosexuality with devil worshiping or masturbation with blindness. Give me a break.

What about abortion? God cleans the world of the things he doesn't want. When women get abortions, it's the same thing, right?

Hopefully you're beginning to see how twisted your logic is.

I'm sorry if i'm sounding mean, but i am totally fed up with comments like this from closed-minded, tunnel-visioned, christian fundementalists who think that their religion makes them better than other people.

If you don't like nudity, then don't look at it. It's that simple.
That's all I have to say.


And Rai, you can eat my shorts

[Kura Ookami]

God created Satan himself so you could say that Satan is derived from God. Just because something is derived from God doesn't mean it is Godly.

[shooraijin]

That's enough, Chazz. Watch your mouth.

[Spike Ikari]

Where do I draw the line?

Well it depends on the anime. No hentai definately. Now there are some anime that do some kind of joke every once in a while, but it's apretty good show.

Take, for example, Azumanga Daioh. We have a few breast size conversations, and a male teacher who likes high school girls, but nothing actually goes any farther and I also find this to be a hillarious series. Azumanga only uses these jokes sometimes.

Now let's take Love Hina, where a lot of the jokes focus on certain things...now that's something I wouldn't watch. That is what the show pretty much is.

[Chazz]

why is it that I offend? Is it because I contradict everything that you've been taught since you were born? You're so convinced that I'm the bad guy here...
But who is it, really? You're so blinded by the shell the bible and churches cast over you that you can see what's right in front of you. Can't you accept the fact that maybe the bible is wrong, that maybe that YOU are wrong, or that everything you've been told is a lie?

I'm not telling people how to live their lives.

I'm just opening their eyes.

[shooraijin]

Chazz, I told you that was enough the first time, and you didn't listen -- so listen to this. Next post from you in this thread, you're out on your rear. Try me and see.

[Chazz]

Some things never change.
blind fellowship kills.
is it really worth it?

[shooraijin]

You were warned.

Carry on, folks.

[JediSonic]

Wow. Getting back on topic...

I always thought the WWJD: What Would Jesus Draw thing was kinda clever.

[Golden_Griff]

Wow. Getting back on topic...

I always thought the WWJD: What Would Jesus Draw thing was kinda clever.

Lol, that is clever I like that

Speaking of too sexy, I saw the most appalling thing in Walmart today. I was looking for a PS2 game and I saw the cover of this fighter game (SNK Fighter Champions or something--I forgot the name). I don't know her name but I've seen that character with the blue/purple long hair and dressed like a white cat before. And I'm quite familiar with the way she dresses

But on this particular game cover...!?! I'm not some elderly woman but I was shocked I was thinking to myself "How in the world did they allow her to be on the cover looking like that??!" I mean she might as well been completely nude!! I found that very outrageous. As a female, I felt some what offended by that It just reminded me of the notion that women can't be involved in anything unless they're wearing tight tight clothes or "showing off."

EDIT: However, I agree with Eire Wolf's comment as well (which I was too lazy to go back and quote ) All nudity isn't bad. Some nudity is used to, um, reflect the beauty of the human form, or it can reflect the beauty of human nature itself. However, that what I saw on that game cover--THAT was not "good" artistic nudity. Using Eire Wolf's terms, I truly believe that is lust-inducing.

[Raiden no Kishi]

You must have seen Felicia from the Darkstalkers series.

Yes, the video game paradigm that female characters must wear tight or revealing clothing sucks.

Rai

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Unforunately sex sells. I'm a guy and I think there should definetly be more respect for the female species. But we live in a broken world that needs Jesus.

[Golden_Griff]

You must have seen Felicia from the Darkstalkers series.

Yes, the video game paradigm that female characters must wear tight or revealing clothing sucks.

Rai

*snaps fingers*

Yeah, that's her name. Now I remember.

(you can see my added comments to my previous post too, for those who care or those who just skip to the last post of the last page of the thread )

EDIT (again):

Unforunately sex sells. I'm a guy and I think there should definetly be more respect for the female species. But we live in a broken world that needs Jesus.

Yes, unfortunately. You don't know about the things that are really of good worth because your blinded by crap.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Unforunately sex sells. I'm a guy and I think there should definetly be more respect for the female species. But we live in a broken world that needs Jesus.

yes, hihgly unfortunately =(

this society is so corrupt! But little by little! we may be able to change stuff!

[Bobtheduck]

Certain characters I've seen would have to have their stomach, kidneys, and the upper two-thirds of their intestines removed to have a waistline that size. I'm sure I'm not the only guy who would not dig that kind of figure on a lady.

This seems to be a problem more with American comics than Japanese.

Yeah... I get so annoyed by a show of anatomical improbability... And hydraulic body parts... I mean, natural is good. That shows off their skill more than exaggeration... Of course, all animation has exaggeration, so that isn't too much of a shock, but the fanservice stuff seems like a distraction from weak plots in many cases... "Take a look at this and get your mind off the fact we have to stretch the story out a bit more"

Of course, these "sexy" comments are a bit annoying, particularly when I hear them even applied to normal, everyday styles. The reason that a character is labeled "too sexy" sometimes has more to do with rather realistic proportions than a lack of modesty in the clothing... It's because some anime women look more like people than the animation people are used to, and they use soft lines rather than hard lines. Now, I can think of 100 examples of cases in which the complaints have merit, but those same complaints have been attributed to very natural characters as well. Also, busts within reasonable limits are often complained about... I mean, a series with a range of sizes and shapes in the characters has the largest female critiqued by people because the show DARES to have a full figured girl in it... I think some balance is in order, but the world isn't balanced...

Speaking of sizes, one common complaint I hear is that there are no overweight girls in anime... Sizes range from petite to moderate (to weird, extreme, unrealistic proportions) That is one I can't quite argue with. While I'm sure something with a more international perspective, like Macross, may have some overweight girls, I can't think of any show or movie off the top of my head that do. The closest thing would be "Sailor Moon" where some of the extremely minor characters were very negligibly overweight... (addendum: DB... Dragonball has overweight characters)

Meh... It is annoying, but it isn't as prevalent as anti-anime people make it out to be (though they go overboard on what they consider "too sexy", so to them it IS that prevalent)

[Kura Ookami]

The problem lies more with american comics than japanese ones in my opinion. In anime there's people of every shape and size, which of course is natural. In american comics i cant think of mny overweight people. And where are different races of people in american comics? I've seen more people of different ethnic minorities in anime than i have american comics. Anti-anime people are just that anti-anime. Hypocrites. They ignore that the same things could easily be said to descrive american cartoons.

Anime is no worse than american comics in any of these things. And the storylines of adult anime is often actually better than the crude humour that seems to carry adult american cartoons. People complain about anime because it's not american. That's all there is to it really. I never hear people complaining about american cartoon characters being too thin. Seems a little ironic that.

No the anti-anime people honestly dont care about anything they complain about. Not really. If they really cared about what they're complaining about they wouldnt just target anime. They'd target every american movie and cartoon too because theirs pletny of american movies that have women in tight skimpy clothing. Funny how they forget that. Sorry for going on like that but it's really annoying how so many people are hypocrites, you know?

[termyt]

Speaking of sizes, one common complaint I hear is that there are no overweight girls in anime... Sizes range from petite to moderate (to weird, extreme, unrealistic proportions) That is one I can't quite argue with. While I'm sure something with a more international perspective, like Macross, may have some overweight girls, I can't think of any show or movie off the top of my head that do. The closest thing would be "Sailor Moon" where some of the extremely minor characters were very negligibly overweight... (addendum: DB... Dragonball has overweight characters)

Where in our entertainment industry are over weight people prevalent? Name an overweight character in a leading of secondary role. There aren't many - most are relegated to bit parts and those characters are mostly shown in an unfavorable light.

Maybe it’s unfortunate, or maybe doing it differently wouldn’t sell. Who can really say since it hasn’t been tried all that often.

My main objection to this line is people who complain about anime characters are too sexy or unnatural or never over-weight while ignoring that every single facet of our media and entertainment industry is set up the same way.

Is it not the height of hypocrisy to have a perfectly made-up, immaculately dressed, drop dead-gorgeous anchor woman read a story complaining about how this-or-that is using sex to sell itself?

PLEAS NOTE – I didn’t intend this to be an indictment against anyone here (or anywhere, really) – I was just trying to make an observation. Please forgive me if I’ve offended anyone. It’s just that we tend to be forgiving of the things we enjoy but condemn the things we are not interested in.

[Kisa]

As Christians, I think we need to not put forth certain characters who are displayed in skimmpy outfits and excessive fanservice.... Alot of anime has this, unfortuanately, all we need to do is avoid it. Also it depends on each person... I personally don't like watching characters who are dressed like they are only wearing a ball of yarn, but o well..... I have a huge sopabox on modesty, but that could take hours.... Just wear some clothes already! ^^''

[uc pseudonym]

I'll stop in to defend American comics to a certain degree. If we look at modern American-created graphic novels, you find a great deal of balance in terms of types of people. It is among American works that I have found the greatest realism (that is, in one American work; I'm not generalizing all of them).

I know! He's such a monster! His love for kimonos just shows the depths of his depravity!

It is refreshing to find a comrade in arms. Let us encourage ourselves with this passage. Matthew 1:9
Thou shalt not mention kimonoes in certain contexts. Yea, I speaketh unto you.

[Gypsy]

Speaking of sizes, one common complaint I hear is that there are no overweight girls in anime... Sizes range from petite to moderate (to weird, extreme, unrealistic proportions) That is one I can't quite argue with. While I'm sure something with a more international perspective, like Macross, may have some overweight girls, I can't think of any show or movie off the top of my head that do. The closest thing would be "Sailor Moon" where some of the extremely minor characters were very negligibly overweight... (addendum: DB... Dragonball has overweight characters)

[font=TAHOMA, VERDANA, ARIAL][size=84]Mao Daidoji, the catcher from Princess Nine isn't your typical anime poster girl, but she seems to be one of a kind. And it's not just the style of the anime - the rest of the team is of the typical athelete build. Mao was made fun of (not by her baseball teammates) for her weight, but that's the only time it was brought up. There was no mention of her size the rest of the series, for bad or good. I actually found it very cool that she was drawn like that. She's not even what I consider to be "fat." Some people are just more solid than others from bone structure and out. I noticed the lack of different body shapes a while ago, and I took that into consideration when I designed my characters for my Offsides manga. I even drew different races! Ok, enough gypsy spam.
[/size][/font]

[Kaligraphic]

It is refreshing to find a comrade in arms. Let us encourage ourselves with this passage. Matthew 1:9
Thou shalt not mention kimonoes in certain contexts. Yea, I speaketh unto you.

Uzziah became the father of Jotham. Jotham became the father of Ahaz. Ahaz became the father of Hezekiah.

Hey, Jotham's mother might have worn a kimono... possibly... in an alternate timeline...


(I seem to have been unclear before - I like things that reflect attributes of God/Christ. God does this throughout the O.T. (Abraham models faith, Samson, strength, Joseph's life displays, among other things, God's provision, while Moses shows God's deliverance.) Even in the New Testament, Paul walks around and his shadow heals people - to show that God is the Healer.

Opposites and perversions, I don't like. ("Hmm, God made this to be life-giving, so I'll copy it, but I'll change it so that part of it is backward and it kills people instead" just doesn't cut it for me.)

Perhaps I should have generalised and reduced my previous post to an aphorism. Perhaps "One who desires pure things will not simultaneously desire the impure." or something like that, but that doesn't quite fit with what I wanted to say, and I don't really like to reduce it that far.)