Feminism and men

[Kura Ookami]

Is it possible to be a male feminist? Why or why not?

[Arnobius]

If you mean that to mean a male who believes in feminism, Yes. The definition of feminism is: The view, articulated in the 19th century, that women are inherently equal to men and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

If you mean to hold a view of men similiar to how feminism holds women, I guess "Masculinism" is the actual term, though perhaps not widely recognized.

http://www.langmaker.com/db/eng_masculinism.htm

However if this thread goes from etymology to politics, I suspect it will get locked.

[Slater]

1 Cor. 6:9-10 ~ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There's the Bible's take on it, for ya.

[Arnobius]

Main Entry: ef·fem·i·nate

Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin effeminatus, from past participle of effeminare to make effeminate, from ex- + femina woman -- more at FEMININE
Date: 15th century
1 : having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner
2 : marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement <effeminate art> <an effeminate civilization>

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with feminism.

[Kura Ookami]

It's a sad fact, but we live in a patriarchal society, which places men above women. This society should be dismantled and women should be given equal rights and power as men are given. If believeing that mkakes me a feminist then I am a feminist.

[Slater]

wait, is it like women's rights you're talking about?

[Arnobius]

wait, is it like women's rights you're talking about?

Yeah, I think that's what he meant.

[Slater]

Aha! I can tell you the Bible's take on that (it is very interesting), but it takes much more detail than I have time to give right now since school starts in like 20 minutes, so uh... after school!!

[Shao Feng-Li]

Woman are to be submissive to men. It's biblical. But that does not make women less then men, only different. God gave men and women DIFFERENT roles, not less or more roles. If women want to be treated like men, they'll get what they deserve. Think abut women, ME getting drafted into the military.

And as if women don't have rigthts anyway, heheh.

1 Cor. 6:9-10 ~ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There's the Bible's take on it, for ya.

Stick that verse in the JRock thread! nuff said

[uc pseudonym]

I feel this topic uses too many terms that are frequently misused for there to be a clear answer. However, using the truest definition of feminism, I feel that it is quite possible. Note that the definition has nothing to do with "submission."

However if this thread goes from etymology to politics, I suspect it will get locked.

You are absolutely correct. Also, if the "submission" passages are argued upon too heavily on denominational lines, it would also be locked.

[VioletEyedCat]

Feminism - interesting. Well, going back to the original topic, I don't find it at all unusual for men to support feminism. It's not like "men versus women" or anything idiotic like that. In reference to the Biblical view (that I agree with and will follow if I ever get married) that a woman should be submissive to her husband, I believe that women can be equal to men and submissive to their husbands at the same time. It's just a different kind of relationship.

[Hitokiri]

It's a sad fact, but we live in a patriarchal society, which places men above women. This society should be dismantled and women should be given equal rights and power as men are given. If believeing that mkakes me a feminist then I am a feminist.

The core belief in feminism is entirely right an djust. I believe women should be given the equal rights that men have. However, what has become of the core beliefs of feminism that it has become some radical and so extreme that it's become the opposite of what it orginally meant. Modern day Feminism has adopted a radical approach in thier goals. Such as abortion, gay rights, and othe politcal and economical matters and when looked upon what the Bible says, it is fundamentally wrong. Liked what Shao Feng-Li said, women are to be submissive but men and women are completely different roles.

I'm all for women to be equal in the work place but for the most part women do better in a controlled workplace. My dad is a fire fighter an dhis opinion that women should not work on the fire department. In his 24 years in the field, he has meant 2 exceptional women firefighters. All the others are lousy at what they do because of how women and men are set up. As he said "most of they start to complain about the workload 2 years in and ask for a desk job" which is usually reserved for firefighters who retire from fighting fires and from looking at the stats, is true that women fire fighters go into the field for desk jobs.

You need to draw a fine line between what women can and cannot do and what men can and cannot do...in which what God wanted it to be. In my view point, those who lead our country should be male because men, IMHO, are more prepared and suited for governing the country. However, I do not think guys should be working in the fashion design or perfume business. Women have the knack for that sort of thing while guys....sorry but FuFu guys bug me.

Womens should be given equal rights however there needs to be a fine line, in which God intended, where I female is a female and doesn't take over the male roles that God gave to us...and save for males as well ::shoos away guys working at Bath and Body Works::

Hopefully I did not offend anyone or go to much into politics.

[Kura Ookami]

[quote="Tollu-M"]I know this is just my first post, so I hope I don't make anyone mad but I'm rather insulted by what you are suggesting, frwl. Are you saying my personality has to be a certain way because I'm male, or that the bible says that? I'm a straight guy but I guess I don't like a bunch of "sterotypical" guy things, like sports or competition or being stoic (I've heard all those things described as "masculine".) I
It's not like I like pink frilly things, but I am very sensitive and emotional, and a lot of my friends are girls.
Even in a relationship, I'm not going to assume a dominant role over my girlfriend, and when we get married I would hate it if my wife was submissive. I'm going to be completely equal with her in every way. So some people might call me slightly effeminate, just because I'm not over-the-top masculine (even though I -am- straight). So are you saying that the bible says I'm not going to heaven because I'm not a sterotypical tough-guy? There are far more important things in your relationship with God than how "girly" or "manly" your personality is.
(I hope that wasn't flaming or too political! If it is, I can just delete my post. ^^]

Good post and i agree with everything you've said. Guys dont have to be tough and macho just because our chauvanistic society says they should be. Women dont have exclusive rights to love either. 98% of the differences between men are women are imposed by society. The other 2% are the physical differences, which are obvious. Men and women are equals and should be treated as such. Why should women be all sensitive and emotional and men be all macho and tough and hold everything inside?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

1 Cor. 6:9-10 ~ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There's the Bible's take on it, for ya.

i dunno... i mean the other translations say something different

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

when they said effminates, ya think they meant like "male prostitutes" or "homosexual offenders" rather then "men who act sorta girly"?

because i pretty much reflect what Tollu-M said, i mean im not into "sports, yadda yadda male stuff" and if you ever knew me im pretty femanine... border line metrosexual? Sure i can be emotional or sensative or go "ZOMG THE PLUSHIE IS SO CUTE!!!" maybe... i mean i don't paint my nails but im not really masculine if you compare me with your average joe...

[Nate]

because i pretty much reflect what Tollu-M said, i mean im not into "sports, yadda yadda male stuff" and if you ever knew me im pretty femanine... border line metrosexual? Sure i can be emotional or sensative or go "ZOMG THE PLUSHIE IS SO CUTE!!!" maybe... i mean i don't paint my nails but im not really masculine if you compare me with your average joe...

I'm the same way, I'm kind of a closest romantic/touchy-feely guy. ^^;;

I'd rather watch a girly series than giant robots blowing up stuff any day of the week, and I dislike sports (except college football ). And I cry like a girl when I watch anime.

So I guess you could say I'm pretty effeminate. I think that verse more reflects those who WANT to be women rather than guys who portray the stereotypical views of women. Guys who dress up in women's clothing and stuff, you know? That is how I interpret that verse, not to mean that it is a sin to have a personality similar to that of a woman's, but that it's a sin to TRY to be like a woman (especially if that leads to homosexuality).

[Myoti]

Even in a relationship, I'm not going to assume a dominant role over my girlfriend, and when we get married I would hate it if my wife was submissive. I'm going to be completely equal with her in every way.

My take on it is that true "submission" is to listen to her husband. The man is suppose to be the man of the house, so even if they are equally married the man has to take charge of the family to bring it up.

[Ingemar]

I may be "sexist" in that I do not believe that women are inherently equal to men in all things, nor do I believe that gender is a completely a social construct. However I wouldn't exclude a woman in an activity because she's a woman. I would only exclude her if (this may sound crass) she sucks in said activity.

In "dangerous" jobs (anything where the probability of death is high), I would prefer that men do them rather than women. This is not because of a jaded view that dictates "never send a woman to do a man's job", but because of simple biological facts. In a microsociety of one man with ten women, if the man were to engage in relations with the women (for argument's sake, let's say polygamy is perfectly moral), in nine months, assuming no fertility problems, the microsociety will have at least ten new members. In the reverse scenario (one woman and ten men) with similar variables, in nine months, the microsociety will have at least one new member. What I am trying to say is, in a high-death probability environment, it is better to have men do the job not because they are BETTER, but because they are EXPENDABLE.

I disagree with many aspects of modern feminism; that doesn't mean I advocate a society in which like-minded Neanderthals such as me drag our women by the hair down to our caves and have them do some child-rearing. Also *snicker* a small part of me doesn't mind marrying a rich breadwinner and being a stay-at-home dad.

[Myoti]

I'm "emotional and touchy" as well and I believe I should be equal with my future wife. Yet at the same time, the husband is commanded by God to lead the family. What that basically means is that he is suppose to be an example and teach his family what is right. It doesn't mean he's suppose to make all the decisions himself.

Also *snicker* a small part of me doesn't mind marrying a rich breadwinner and being a stay-at-home dad.

I know I wouldn't mind, though I have too many future plans in game design to fall back on that one. XP

[GhostontheNet]

1 Cor. 6:9-10 ~ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There's the Bible's take on it, for ya.

"Effeminate" -

G3120
μαλακός
malakos
Thayer Definition:
1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaphorically in a bad sense
2a) effeminate
2a1) of a catamite
2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
2a4) of a male prostitute
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity


Doubtless these later definitions are intended.

[White Raven]

I don’t think there is a wrong or right answer to this one peeps.
Count down until someone closes this thread 10....................9......................8....................7

[Nate]

I'm "emotional and touchy" as well and I believe I should be equal with my future wife. Yet at the same time, the husband is commanded by God to lead the family. What that basically means is that he is suppose to be an example and teach his family what is right. It doesn't mean he's suppose to make all the decisions himself.

I agree with you, Myoti, and you're very bright. Remember, woman was made FROM man, and though they are equal, the man is still dominant. If I may quote something I heard somewhere (don't remember where):

Woman was made from man's rib. From his side, to be equal with him. Under his arm, to be protected by him. And near his heart, to be loved by him.

Ephesians gives an example of how a Godly relationship should be. A marriage is an earthly example of how Christ leads the church. As such, we are commanded by God to lead our wives as Christ leads the church. This doesn't mean we bark orders at them, it merely means that we are the head of the household. It doesn't mean that we ignore our wives, it simply means that we make the best decision we can with their input.

Women WANT the man to be dominant in a relationship. Sorry, but that's how it is, that's how God made women. If a woman is with a wishy-washy guy who always says, "I don't know, dear, what do you think?" and can't make his own decisions, the woman will feel unfulfilled. Ask for her input, but make the final decision. If she disagrees, that's fine. But she'll feel more appreciated than if you ask her to make all the decisions.

[Kura Ookami]

On the subject of being a stay at home dad, i think it is probably a tougher job than most jobs men do, yet men naturally think it's easy. Why do they think this? Because if women can do it it must be easy for us superior men to do the same. That is a pretty chauvanistic point of view. As i said before in this society men are thought of as superior to women.

I dont have any experience in raising children, but i have no illusions as to the difficulty of such a job. If you think it's an easy way out, you're wrong and i wonder if any mothers or fathers can back me up on this? From what ive heard though it is also a very rewarding job.

Kae. I think women want men that are strong individuals who actually have their own opinions, not neccessarily dominant men. They want equal partners not inferior ones.

[Nate]

On the subject of being a stay at home dad, i think it is probably a tougher job than most jobs men do, yet men naturally think it's easy. Why do they think this? Because if women can do it it must be easy for us superior men to do the same. That is a pretty chauvanistic point of view. As i said before in this society men are thought of as superior to women.

I dont have any experience in raising children, but i have no illusions as to the difficulty of such a job. If you think it's an easy way out, you're wrong and i wonder if any mothers or fathers can back me up on this? From what ive heard though it is also a very rewarding job.

Also remember that God charged Adam with working the earth. The curse has made work harder, but it is still man's command to work. So stay at home dads usually feel unfulfilled because they are not carrying out their charge by God to work.

EDIT: Quickly to Kura's statement, that's more what I meant. A strong man who has opinions rather than one who is meek and afraid to make a decision on his own, not a man who constantly flaunts his authority over his wife. Remember, we are to treat our wives as Christ treats the church. I apologize if I was misunderstood.

[White Raven]

Did you know, that a stay at home mom works as much as two full-time jobs.

[Myoti]

On the subject of being a stay at home dad, i think it is probably a tougher job than most jobs men do, yet men naturally think it's easy. Why do they think this? Because if women can do it it must be easy for us superior men to do the same. That is a pretty chauvanistic point of view. As i said before in this society men are thought of as superior to women.

I have to watch my little brother alot, but that's probably no where near "true" stay at home...um, dadness. I like keeping kids at the church and stuff because it's fun for me to be around them and I think I'm fairly good at it. Still, I don't think I'd be satisfied being someone who just stays at home all the time. Possibly my wife won't be either. Who knows how it'll end up? (Besides God, o' course.)

[Debitt]

>_> Feminism in the way of "women's rights", deserving equal pay, the right to vote, etc. is in no way in opposition to any Biblical ideas. What is in opposition to Biblical ideals, I think, is to place one gender in a position that is ultimately and unquestionably superior to the other.

What I mean is that women have their roles and men have their roles - true, men may be better at some things and mandated by God to preform certain roles both in society and in the family, but at the same time women are seen as more nuturing, more sensitive, and more naturally inclined to care for children than men are. We are different, but we are equal in our worths before God.

[Kura Ookami]

Did you know, that a stay at home mom works as much as two full-time jobs.

No, i cant say that i did know that, but im not really surprised. Babies have to have their nappies changed and toddlers have alot of energy. Not to mention a baby can quite easily keep you up at night. You've also gotta teach them how to do things like walk. Like i said it cant be easy plus it never ends. You can walk away from a job after you've finished it but you cant do the same to your own kids.

[White Raven]

Gives Kokoro Daisuke handshake, good one.

[Kura Ookami]

>_> Feminism in the way of "women's rights", deserving equal pay, the right to vote, etc. is in no way in opposition to any Biblical ideas. What is in opposition to Biblical ideals, I think, is to place one gender in a position that is ultimately and unquestionably superior to the other.

What I mean is that women have their roles and men have their roles - true, men may be better at some things and mandated by God to preform certain roles both in society and in the family, but at the same time women are seen as more nuturing, more sensitive, and more naturally inclined to care for children than men are. We are different, but we are equal in our worths before God.

Good point and i can see where you're coming from, but is that nurturing sensitive side to women just another aspect of our patriarchal society? It's how this society views women. I wonder, would women be sensitive if we lived in a matriarchal society instead of the patriarchal one we do live in? Would women be the same as they are now if the society which we lived in promoted tough macho women and sensitive caring, nurturing men?

Ultimately we are all one species. Humanity.

[Ashley]

Tollu-M, I'm wondering why you insist on being so incredibly defensive. That's fine that you have a set way you want to run your marriage--why must you continually attack or defend your statements again and again and again.

As far as men and women go, if you think about it the roles are just different, not hierarchical. I have seen many, many beautiful Christian marriages where because the husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church, he asks for her input and wants her help in his decision. And because his wife loves him, she offers her best insight and then they make a decision together. It's so easy for people to forget the "husbands, love your wives" part and to twist scripture around into making it seem like women are so completely inferior/wronged by the gospel. Lemme tell you, Christianity did SO much for the role of women it's not even funny.

It's only a problem when one half of the equation doesn't do their part. If you have one partner--male OR female--that gives gives gives and never recieves, it's out of balance and not what God intended. And I can say that as a Christian woman, God has been preparing my heart for marriage and how to submit without being forced down with the trust that my future husband will love me as much as I will love him, and together we will fulfill our roles. I believe when God is first in both lives, He can do wonderful things and create a beautiful marriage like He intended it to be.

Girls, the best way to learn to be a good Christian wife is to get involved with other Christian women.

Guys, the best way to learn to be a good Christian husband is to get involved with other godly guys.