Fighting Back?

[Vash is a plant]

I very close friend of mine was sexually harassed at her middle school. She fought back, doing whatever possible to protect herself. This is something that I also have to deal with at work, but not to the extent that my friend has. I was wondering, as a Christian, in such situations, is ok to fight back? I know Jesus didn't fight back when He was taken before the Jewish leaders and was beaten by the soldiers and ultimately when He was crucified. Should we follow the same? Should we let people hurt and violate us without fighting back? I know that not fighting back but showing love reguardless of what people do to us can be one of the strongest witness for Christ anyone can give. It's showing God's love to, probably, the extreme.

I know how to fight and how to seriously hurt someone, even kill them, but personally, it's something I could never see myself using aside for the sake of protecting someone else. In fact, I was thinking about this last night after work, what would I do if a situation like that ever came up? At first I decided that, well duh, I'd fight back, brake his legs! However, I started to realize exactly what would happen to the person and finally couldn't see it as something I would do.

Any thoughts?

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I personally think self defense is not a problem but I wouldn't say killing the person is the right thing to do. But if you are being abused or attacked I don't see that its a good idea to let it happen. The consequences of not fighting back could be dire, but then I don't really know much about this kind of thing.
When I was bullied badly at school as a last resort I would fight to defend myself and then make a quick get away but this seems to be far more serious a situation.
Sorry I can't be of much help.

[Sakura15]

I think if your being sexually harrased you have the right to defend yourself, personally I would fight with all I had in me to stop someone from doing that. Not kill them, but hurt them enough to get away, or make them back off.

[Ashley]

I think you have to look at the context of the message in regards to what Jesus said on "fighting back". When He talked about "love your enemies", I don't think He meant "let anyone who wants to rape you do so". I always took it to mean if there's a race, clan or family you have a personal grudge against even when they have done you no wrong--love them. If there's someone who has betrayed you or hurt in the past--love them. If your people are in exile under harsh masters--do as the masters tell you without grumbling or complaining.

And as for being in front of the synagogue, the Pharisees were accusing him of lies, mocking him, and then yes phyiscal abuse. Did Jesus scoff back "nuh uh!", or demand his rights to a laywer, or whatever? No. He had a very specific goal in mind--cruxificition was absolutely necessary for our salvation, so even if He had "spoken within His rights" and said something to stop the trial, the ultimate goal would have been lost.

However, that is just my opinion. To sum it up, I don't think those passages could be taken in the context of what to do in sexual or physical harassment. Perhaps you could speak to your local pastor or youth pastor, or even an adult in your congregation you trust, and seek their guidance. Also, I believe even if you don't find your answer here, the Holy Spirit knows that you are seeking the Godly path in all of this, and I sincerely doubt He'll leave you hanging when the time comes (if it does at all).

[desperado]

under the law it states that if you are under physical threat that you can defend yourself. if you are in danger of death (or rape in some states) you can use weapons. it is fine to defend yourself its even fine under the law. if you are seriously worried about them going after you carry mace or a taser. there cheap and can sometimes even be found at walmart

edit

forgot to mention the way the martial artist feels in me. never start fights, never be the first to swing, but you must at all costs protect your life, your security, and those who you love. from reading the Bible i beleive it agrees with this statement.

edit again....

forgot to mention about the taser and mace for outside of school. if you scream your head off if there is anyone around or slug them and run youll definetly get some help at middle school or high school.

[Madeline]

Fight back, at whatever the cost. If someone is trying to do something like that to you, the number one priority is to get away from them.

In fact, in the Old Testament the Law states that if a woman is being sexually abused, she is to scream and kick and do whatever is in her power to escape the offender.

Loving your enemy is one thing, being sexually abused by someone is another.

[uc pseudonym]

Personally, I'd say that fighting back is a bad idea (but read the entire post, please). If you fight, there are several possible results. At best, you will only harm them and escape. But there is a fairly good chance that the person could fight better than you, in which case your situation will only be worse.

That having been said, however, the Bible never tells you to sit back and let evil happen to you. On the contrary, we are to fight evil... but with good. Killing the attacker would be fighting evil with evil (which is, of course, highly effective). But honestly, how often is it more effective to kill someone than to run away?

But having said that, I'll also point out that showing love to evil is an extremely powerful witness. As Christians, staying alive is not our highest priority, but rather to live lives that honor God.

[Alice]

If someone's harassing you, you should report it immediately to whoever is in charge. There's always someone to report stuff like that to.

And yes, you should fight back. Here's the reason.

You can fight back. You don't have to kill someone. And he needs stopped.

If a guy is sick enough to try to sexually assault you, he'll try to do it to some other girl, too. If you can get him in trouble, yes even broken his legs, then you should. Because you don't know if the next girl will be able to. And if you found out that happened, you'd be very sad. Not that it would be your fault, but... it would just be a shame.

Loving your enemies doesn't mean you let them get away with doing wrong. Like hurting someone. That's not love anymore than it would be love if a father let his kid rob and steal.

[Jasdero]

Well... I think if you were to get into such a situation, you should fight back with all you've got. If worse to comes to worse, I think one could kill them. Yes, love your enemies, but don't let them harm you, especially not in this way.

[desperado]

thats the genius of mace or a taser, you dont have to worry about getting hurt you can taser or mace em and run away

[Mr. SmartyPants]

if you cannot fight back, highly consider equipping yourself with a taser or pepperspray (im not kidding)

i knew this one lady, where i used to get tutored. She went to Penn State, and she always had pepper spray with her handy

[Vash is a plant]

But honestly, how often is it more effective to kill someone than to run away?

I don't quite understand what you mean...

But having said that, I'll also point out that showing love to evil is an extremely powerful witness. As Christians, staying alive is not our highest priority, but rather to live lives that honor God.

That was the main thing I was thinking about last night. Also, in the Jesus Freaks books by DC Talk, there are accounts of people that have sacraficed their well being and lives just to not harm someone and to show them the love of God. There's one account of two women who were taken away for being Christians and even after their captors did such horrid things to them, even rape them, they still showed them love and kindness. If I remember correctly, one of them even became a Christian.

I never want to hurt anybody, friend or foe alike. If someone, however, is trying to hurt another, I will step in for the other person's sake, using what I know to perhaps save both. If someone were to attack me, I would try to get away, but not to the point of seriously injuring someone. (They may get a few bruises..) I agree that staying alive in this world is not at all our highest priority, but living God honouring lives.

I guess it's a matter of trying to find when it's going too far for both sides of the case: to defend to the point of being mercyless or to be destroyed by evil. I've always believed that if someone doesn't take a stand against evil, then they will be conqured by it. Evil must be fought... but maybe not in a physical way.. gr.. just don't know...

Thank you all so much for your comments! I won't be able to reply until next Friday, but I'll have a lot to be able to think over while I'm camping. Thank you. ^ ^;

...all the smilies that I can use are moving aside from the banna. The way it's frozen, it looks so funny...

[agasfas]

I believe there are always things you need to fight back with. Yes, it's true Jesus allowed himself be crucified, mocked, and stated, "turn the other cheeck." But Jesus also showed anger and frustration of others. For example, in the Temple where Jesus flipped over the tables and made it clear he was dissapointed that the people turned the house of God into a market. Perhaps a point that we need to learn what battles are worth fighting for

Is it worth staring a heated battle for a really frivolous thing like someone who curses at us? I mean, if someone curses at me, is it really worth cursing back; resulting in perhaps a physical meeting?

On the otherhand, if someone is trying to beat me up for no reason or trying to hurt the people I love, you better believe I'm not going to let that happen.

When it came down to it, Jesus always stood up for the things that mattered; what was right. ANd I believe everyone should. Sexual harrasment is something you shouldn't have to put up with because it's not right. It can hurt people emotionally and sometimes physcially. To me that doesn't seem frivolous at all.

So to me, i believe we just need to know what battles are worth fighting.

[Slater]

I have trained in Martial Arts for much of my life, and a lot of that time in a Christian dojo. As far as fighting back goes, maiming someone may seem a bit extreme, but it's the best thing you can do if someone's trying to rape you. There are many times out there today where it is either your life or the life of an attacker.

[Ingemar]

I very close friend of mine was sexually harassed at her middle school. She fought back, doing whatever possible to protect herself. This is something that I also have to deal with at work, but not to the extent that my friend has. I was wondering, as a Christian, in such situations, is ok to fight back? I know Jesus didn't fight back when He was taken before the Jewish leaders and was beaten by the soldiers and ultimately when He was crucified. Should we follow the same?

You must remember that Jesus's entire purpose on Earth was to exactly to get crucified and die. While there is no passage that shows Jesus actually fought, he did have some of his disciples carry swords (of course, he healed the soldier who lost his ear to Peter), and the way he stood his ground during temptation by Satan could be seen as a kind of fighting.

Should we let people hurt and violate us without fighting back? I know that not fighting back but showing love reguardless of what people do to us can be one of the strongest witness for Christ anyone can give. It's showing God's love to, probably, the extreme.

All I can say is that you can never be sure how your reaction can affect a person. Perhaps meekness may encourage the evildoer. If that's so, I don't think you can be blamed for it because you didn't mean for it to happen. However, if fighting is th only way to prevent more evil from happening, I believe it is acceptable.

I know how to fight and how to seriously hurt someone, even kill them, but personally, it's something I could never see myself using aside for the sake of protecting someone else. In fact, I was thinking about this last night after work, what would I do if a situation like that ever came up? At first I decided that, well duh, I'd fight back, brake his legs! However, I started to realize exactly what would happen to the person and finally couldn't see it as something I would do.

Any thoughts?

Sometimes, the best course of action is to get the hell out of Dodge. But you can only run away so many times. It is good that you are squeamish about exacting punishment of others, but you must remember that not everyone will be as noble-minded as you, certainly not your pursuer. When your back is against the wall, YOU HAVE TO TAKE A STAND. Dying for causes is all well and good, but there is nothing noble about dying as a victim.

[Sam*ron]

Yes, you need to totally fight back!! I mean, Jesus didn't fight back, cause he knew it was his dutie. I mean, God told him he was going to die, why fight back?

Anyway, I manely wanted to say that I am praying for you, and fight. ^_^

[lionheart]

I will echo everyone's advice excepting UC's.

A sex-offender automatically forfits any rights he may have had to his own safety the second that he makes his move. Also you would most likely be saving other girls perhaps more vulnerable than yourself, if you either turn the guy in, break his legs, or sever his worthless soul from his equally worthless body.


Below is my response to your inquiry about the need for mercy. It's perhaps not perfectly phrased, but I hope to get my meaning across:


It would be sentencing the wretched soul to an even greater condemnation from God himself, if you would let some 'sex-crazed compilation of filth' abuse you when you could have prevented it.

You see, if the man is allowed to follow his own wicked ambitions, God will certainly unleash His almighty wrath on the contemptible soul when the day of judgment comes. Then the miserable excuse for a living being will wish a million times over that he hadn't abused one who God loves.

It's actually more merciful to break someone's legs, than to allow them to condemn themselves so much further in the eyes of our Lord. (Meaning that since God is our father, how unfathomable will his anger be upon anyone who succeeds in abusing his children, especially in the aforementioned way, and ESPECIALLY his daughters.)

The point that I'm trying to get across here, is that there's a time and a place for physical mercy, but dealing with a sex-offender isn't one of them.


I'll be praying for God to bless you with His wisdom on this subject!
God bless!

[Slater]

eh I think your viewpoint is kinda off-Christian-ish... As a matter of fact, way off. Saying a sinner's life isn't worth beans is probably true, but we were all sinners, and still God loved us. He created all, saved and unsaved.

I'm not sure of this, so I may be wrong, but in the Bible, a woman wasn't considered to be raped unless she fought with all of her strength against the man... And that was the case not-so-long ago, too.

Edit: Aha... Deut 22...
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

I was wrong... kinda.

[Fsiphskilm]

Jesus d

[lionheart]

I didn't say sinner, I said sex-offender. We are all sinners, and therefore all worthy of death. But certain sins impact others more severally than others, and therefor the penalty for such a sin is the forfeit of your own life. I will stand by that belief, although I can easily see the direction that you're coming from.

I think that this verse you posted is in agreement with what I was talking about.

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death:

Perhaps I will find a less-evil sounding way to rephrase my first statement, while I still agree with it, I don't want it to cause a problem.

[Kura Ookami]

Lionheart i disagree. A person who rapes others is still a person and even if the only people who ever existed were rapists, child molestors and murderers, Jesus would still have died to save all of them. A rapist, child molestor or murderer is worth every bit as much as you are worth. In Gods eyes stealing a single sweet from a sweet shop is every bit as bad as raping someone is.

While we're on the subject of rape, some rape cases are when the woman was "willing". Yep. Rape happens when the woman is "willing" yet rape is when a woman is forced into doing it. A paradox, no?

Not exactly. Women can be uncertain about whether they really want to do it or not, and there needs to be no violence involved. When 50% of a woman says yes, but 50% of the her says no, she's not psychologically ready. Telling her to make love with you when they're vulnerable because they're uncertain can make them do it and on the surface do it willingly. You can force someone to do something with words as well as with violence. Why are women treated as pets by men in this way?

The answer is simple. It's because the women are willing to be abused because their self esteem is low. If you allow yourself to be treated like a favorate pet (or a girl whose vulnerability makes her easy prey for raging hormones) then you will be treated as such. People should love themselves before they try to love others. If you do not have the capacity to love yourself then you will not have the capacity to love another person.

The point im trying to get across is that not fighting back can be worse than fighting back, because the man might think you were willing even if you werent fighting back for a different reason. As for how much you should hurt them, only hurt them as much as is neccessary to allow for your escape.

[lionheart]

Lionheart i disagree. A person who rapes others is still a person and even if the only people who ever existed were rapists, child molestors and murderers, Jesus would still have died to save all of them. A rapist, child molestor or murderer is worth every bit as much as you are worth. In Gods eyes stealing a single sweet from a sweet shop is every bit as bad as raping someone is.

I'm off to find some verses to disprove that. Be back later.


Edit:

Our view on things is apparently quite different kura.

I believe that if the only people in the world were "rapists, child molesters and murderers" that God would do the same thing that he did with Sodom and Gomorrah, as it's described in Genesis 18-19.
If you'll remember, God said that He would have spared the city if He could find even 10 righteous people living within it, but He didn't, and the city was destroyed. Also, that was the case with Noah and the flood as well, (Genesis 6- 8) though that happened before Sodom and Gomorrah did.

Any sin, no matter large or small, will separate us from God, true.
But what Biblical proof do you have where God says that all sin is equally "bad"? I would argue that the biblical structure of different punishments for different crimes is making it obvious that not all sins are equally "bad".
A verse backing up my point that not all sins are equal would be 1 John 5 for example:

16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

It is my personal belief that stealing a candy, while, being unlawful/sinful doesn't lead unto death. While if a person's so whacked-up that they'll rape someone….

(Something that I thought about after reading Cap'n Crack's post, is that stealing a candy would be the worse crime, while having lustful thoughts would be the greater sin. Lust being a far greater threat to our spiritual health then petty thievery.)


Attached are some of the bible verses that after looking through a myriad of passages, I thought had some relevance to my first post.

[Kura Ookami]

I'm off to find some verses to disprove that. Be back later.

Okay, I've just realised that comparing rape to stealing a single sweet isnt fair. So how about this? What is worse? Looking at a girl with lust in your heart or stealing a single sweet from a shop?

When looking at it this way im willing to bet that quite a few people would say that the stealing a sweet is worse because you actually did something wrong whereas with the other you only thought something wrong.

That's a better comparison because both can lead to bigger things. The lustful look can lead to rape and the stealing can lead to stealing billions of dollars from an organisation.

[Cap'n Nick]

The Bible is pretty clear on the fact that sin is sin. Whether it's rape or petty theft, even a single sin seperates man from God and makes him imperfect. However, that does not mean we should deal with all sins the same way here on Earth. Both Deuteronomic and modern civil law reflect the need to deal with different crimes in different ways. In answering this question we need to concentrate more on sexual assault as a crime rather than sexual assault as a sin.

[uc pseudonym]

I don't quite understand what you mean...

I meant that, in terms of raw efficacy, it is rarely more effective to kill a person than to merely get out of the situation. If your objective is to avoid being harmed, the swiftest way to do that does not involve harming them. Also, very few sexual offenders attack people at random: they prey on specific people. It isn't as if they'll rape someone in the five minutes it might take you to call proper authorities.

That was the main thing I was thinking about last night. Also, in the Jesus Freaks books by DC Talk, there are accounts of people that have sacraficed their well being and lives just to not harm someone and to show them the love of God. There's one account of two women who were taken away for being Christians and even after their captors did such horrid things to them, even rape them, they still showed them love and kindness. If I remember correctly, one of them even became a Christian.

I never want to hurt anybody, friend or foe alike. If someone, however, is trying to hurt another, I will step in for the other person's sake, using what I know to perhaps save both. If someone were to attack me, I would try to get away, but not to the point of seriously injuring someone. (They may get a few bruises..) I agree that staying alive in this world is not at all our highest priority, but living God honouring lives.

I think that it is important to respond with love, but that it is more loving to not let them commit their crime. Of course, you can not let them commit their crime and be quite unloving about it.

There are many times out there today where it is either your life or the life of an attacker.

I realize that we don't actually disagree greatly, so I hope that this is seen as a minor disagreement, not argumentative nitpicking. However, I do disagree with your statement. When (in the type of situation we speak of) is it absolutely necessary to take the other person's life in order to save your own?

A sex-offender automatically forfits any rights he may have had to his own safety the second that he makes his move.

If you do good only to those who do good to you, what good is it? Do not even the pagans do that? I disagree with your statement in the extreme]Also you would most likely be saving other girls perhaps more vulnerable than yourself, if you either turn the guy in, break his legs, or sever his worthless soul from his equally worthless body.[/quote]

I feel I addressed the first part of your statement earlier in this post. In regard to your last clause, I feel that it is wrong to say who is or is not worthy, which is, in effect, playing God.

But certain sins impact others more severally than others, and therefor the penalty for such a sin is the forfeit of your own life. I will stand by that belief

Why? I don't mean that abrasively, I'm asking for your reasoning.

[Slater]

I realize that we don't actually disagree greatly, so I hope that this is seen as a minor disagreement, not argumentative nitpicking. However, I do disagree with your statement. When (in the type of situation we speak of) is it absolutely necessary to take the other person's life in order to save your own?

There are times, such as the time when my dad came to pick my sister and I (both very young at the time) up from my grandma's house at night. A man broke into his car and started taking his stuff. My dad, thinking it was just one of his brother-in-laws checking his car out, went up and started joking around with him, but when he realized that it was someone he didn't know and that he was trying to steal stuff, that's when the fight was on. My sister's life and my own were endangered in my dad's eyes at the time as long as that man was around, so my dad caught him cornered in the car and started attacking the man, trying to kill him. The thief pulled out a knife and stabbed my dad.

In the man's possition, he had that option: kill or be killed. No, my dad didn't die, but it was close. But there are times when you need to choose.

[Kura Ookami]

There are times, such as the time when my dad came to pick my sister and I (both very young at the time) up from my grandma's house at night. A man broke into his car and started taking his stuff. My dad, thinking it was just one of his brother-in-laws checking his car out, went up and started joking around with him, but when he realized that it was someone he didn't know and that he was trying to steal stuff, that's when the fight was on. My sister's life and my own were endangered in my dad's eyes at the time as long as that man was around, so my dad caught him cornered in the car and started attacking the man, trying to kill him. The thief pulled out a knife and stabbed my dad.

In the man's possition, he had that option: kill or be killed. No, my dad didn't die, but it was close. But there are times when you need to choose.

What if your dad hadnt even attempted to prevent the theif from stealoing anything and just watched it happen? Your dads life was only in danger when he actually tried to stop the theif from doing what he was doing. If you dont fight back in a rape case when is your life ever in any danger? The theif that tried to steal your stuff wasnt planning on killing your dad when he decided to attempt the robbery and its the same with rapists. It is only if you fight back that your life may be in danger.

[Slater]

You don't understand. The thief had been caught in the act and there were children and elderly present. When thieves get caught stealing like that, they can do some very irrational and dangerous things. For all we knew, he had a gun on him.

[Shao Feng-Li]

If you can't run away fight back. Even if you kill them, well it's their fault not yours. If you find a person with there hands on like you younger siblings, what are you gonna do? Let it happen? It's best not to kill and take it the authorities but if in the prosses of fighting back you happen to kill him, well to bad for him. He should of not tried to rape anyone.

Somehow, it makes no sense to not fight back when someone is trying to rape you.

You can't let it happen for that makes you giulty too.

When it was the martyrs they had the option of denying Christ or dying. So they couldn't deny Christ.

[Cap'n Nick]

I'm feeling ornery and shall thus raise questions instead of answering them.

We are told to turn the other cheek, but should we turn those of others?

If we make our attacker's life forfeit, do we also forfeit our own?

How much of an attacker's motivations, means, and limits can we actually consider in a crisis situation?