Reincarnation

[Syreth]

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment...
Hebrews 9:27

I had a discussion today about reincarnation with a girl I know in school. She brought up a story she saw on TV about a boy who had memories from being a pilot or something (she wasn't clear on the details). Anyhow, I was wondering if you guys could share any apologetics against reincarnation or any insights you could share from conversations that you've had about this with people.

I already know that reincarnation is pretty much unverifiable. Someone could easily conjure up memories from their imagination. I also brought up the fact that these memories people have from past lives are usually really glamorous (like memories of being a king, warrior, priest, etc.) and people hardly ever have memories from being something like a chicken.

I would appreciate anything helpful you guys have to share. If this is in the wrong place, then I apologize for the inconvenience.

[Slater]

We will all be reincarnated in the End, given physical, perfect, and infallable bodies with which we will live out the rest of eternity

[Bobtheduck]

I have my speculations on this, but PM me for that. For every important purpose, yes, it is appointed to man once to die, so no reincarnation.

[Lady Macbeth]

Chickens aren't noted for incredibly detailed memories, and they also show signs of handling trauma better than humans do.

There are several references to reincarnation in the Bible; they come largely from the Old Testament or from New Testament figures (including Jesus) who refer to Old Testament teachings - this is because reincarnation was an accepted idea among the Jews of that era and was inherited by early Christians.

One of the most notable and famous references comes from the book of Matthew, where Jesus is speaking of John the Baptist:

11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John appeared. 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, who is to come.

This passage is often believed to refer to John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah, prophesized in Malachi (3:1 and 4:5-4:6) and referenced again in Luke 1:17, during the tale of John's conception and birth.

[quote="Luke 1:17"]1:17 And he will go as forerunner before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared for him.â€

[Mr. SmartyPants]

This may also help:
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=JT&v=detail&id=604

Ravi Zacharias speaking in India. One man asked a question about reincarnation. Excellent stuff here! It's about 15 minutes long and you will probably love it.

About those tv shows with people with past lives. I saw them too. They are probably mjaor hoaxes

[CDLviking]

We will all be reincarnated in the End, given physical, perfect, and infallable bodies with which we will live out the rest of eternity

That's an equivocation though. You are talking about two very different kinds of reincarnation.

[Tenshi no Ai]

All I know after being in psychology, is if you are "hypnotized" to remembering age regression, it's historically incorrect because hypotism is role playing in which you use to try and please the hypnotist (that's all hypnotizm is, no special state of consciousness or anything).
*cough* That's all I have to add if someone "remembers" a past life through hypnotism :/

[uc pseudonym]

At this point I think I have only one thing to add, the results of an interesting study in psychology. A group of individuals were told that they were participating in an experiment involving subconscious memories. The testers then began to give them details about an event in their childhood past one at a time that they had supposedly gotten from their parents. When the subject remembered the event they were supposed to stop the tester. The majority remembered the event after a while and were able to finish the story with many details.

The catch, of course, is that the researchers gave them details for a story that never happened. Though they obviously knew their results weren't categorical proof of anything, I believe it says quite a bit about the human ability to construct memory.

[Tenshi no Ai]

The catch, of course, is that the researchers gave them details for a story that never happened. Though they obviously knew their results weren't categorical proof of anything, I believe it says quite a bit about the human ability to construct memory.

Yeah implanted memories was somethign else I had to read about.

I think also "de ja vu" can be a factor. I mean lots of people have de ja vu in dreams too (including me). Maybe it's another reason why people think "I've done this before! ...must've been in another life!"\

*random quote cause it's at the appropriate time* ^^
"If I could come back as something it would be a butterfly. Because no one EVER suspects The Butterfly!"
...maybe not the exact wording, but you get the idea

[Syreth]

The catch, of course, is that the researchers gave them details for a story that never happened. Though they obviously knew their results weren't categorical proof of anything, I believe it says quite a bit about the human ability to construct memory.

That's a good thing to bring up. I've heard of stories where psychiatrists (or psychologists?) have actually convinced people that they were abused when they were children and supressed the memories, when in reality, nothing actually happened. So basically, even if a person thinks that a memory that they had in a past life is genuine, there's a reasonable chance it could have been fabricated.

I think it's really important to define what we are talking about, so I copied a chart that one of my teachers gave me in Bible College.

Reincarnation
-Substantial change (who/what we are)
-Change of body
-Driven by karma (debt to be paid off)
-Worked for
-Liability
-Happens multiple times
-Into a mortal body

Born Again
-Relational change (John 3)
-Driven by grace (Romans 4)
-Gift (Ephesians 2:8-9)
-Asset (not liability)
-Happens now (not after we die)
-Happens once

Resurrection
-Change in body (not of; 1 Corinthians 15)
-Change in secondary qualities (what we have)
-One time
-Into an immortal body (never die again)
-Verifiable (Jesus Christ)

[PigtailsJazz]

Forgive me if I repeat anything someone else has already said....I'm too lazy to go back and read all the answers....

I guess this isn't the best apologetics answer, but I would definitely say such stories are that of the demonic. I used to be really fascinated with mysticism type stuff, and read a story like this once...where this kid knew all these details about a town he'd never been to before. And I used to believe it.

But now I don't (obviously).

What I believe is that these details were probably revealed to him through demonic means somehow. But I really have done enough research on this part of apologetics...

[Syreth]

I guess this isn't the best apologetics answer, but I would definitely say such stories are that of the demonic. I used to be really fascinated with mysticism type stuff, and read a story like this once...where this kid knew all these details about a town he'd never been to before. And I used to believe it.

That's also a possiblity. If that were the case, it would probably go along with other things that demons are probably behind like ghosts and aliens and other such things. I used to be into a form of witchcraft and for awhile I had myself convinced that I was a dragon in a past life (since I had a fascination with dragons I was quite motivated to think this way). But anyhow, like you, I've repented from all that stuff.

Mr. Smartypants, that Q&A session nailed it right on the head for me. I was wondering about the scripture that Lady Macbeth brought up about John the Baptist and Elijah, but that cleared a lot up for me. Thanks for sharing!

[mitsuki lover]

The mind is one of the least understood parts of what makes us human.It is still very much unexplored in so many ways that there are areas we can't really explain or understand.Science has a lot of esploring of the human mind before we can truelly understand why such a concept as reincarnation even exists.
As far as reincarnation per se goes,many cultures in the past had some form of belief in it,not just the Hindus and other East Asians.Although the
Hindu and Buddhist form is probably the one we are all most familiar with.
On the other hand,believe it or not reincarnation was also part of ancient
Celtic beliefs.
Celtic warriors went into battle believing that if they died they would be reborn in another body.
This aspect of Celtic beliefs was seen in an episode of the short lived fantasy series ROAR.

[Mugendai]

Personally, I say Yes to reincarnation. As for said pilot story, well... Thats not a very good case as far as I can tell, but then again,
The predicted reason why the 'memories' are taken to be more extravagant, is because memories like that leave much more of an impact on you.
There are also cases where people have known things they couldn't possibly have known.

A.) A 5 year old boy who claims to have been another man from a village 30 feet/kilometers/miles (I forget the exact measurement.) He remembered the layout of his old house, which had not been entered for 5 years, the last time the man who owned it was in. He also remembered exactly where he kept his hidden rifle, despite the fact that neither authorities or anyone else knew. He also managed to give 30 facts about the mans previous life. He got 29 right, the 30th could not be verified because of the facts nature, but it too was likely correct. Also note, the boy has never been to the village before.

There are MANY, MANY cases just like that. And it isn't always children who recall them (without hypnosis), either. Both adults as well.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

If reincarnation is true, that requires a "first birth". Where did this first birth come from?

Unless you affirm that your births can from from a different timeline, then that is different. Like you can die and be born during the time of the civil war or something.

[Yojimbo]

Personally, I say Yes to reincarnation. As for said pilot story, well... Thats not a very good case as far as I can tell, but then again,
The predicted reason why the 'memories' are taken to be more extravagant, is because memories like that leave much more of an impact on you.
There are also cases where people have known things they couldn't possibly have known.

A.) A 5 year old boy who claims to have been another man from a village 30 feet/kilometers/miles (I forget the exact measurement.) He remembered the layout of his old house, which had not been entered for 5 years, the last time the man who owned it was in. He also remembered exactly where he kept his hidden rifle, despite the fact that neither authorities or anyone else knew. He also managed to give 30 facts about the mans previous life. He got 29 right, the 30th could not be verified because of the facts nature, but it too was likely correct. Also note, the boy has never been to the village before.

There are MANY, MANY cases just like that. And it isn't always children who recall them (without hypnosis), either. Both adults as well.

That's fine and all but first off I should say, without going into refuting reincarnation more like others here, can you actually verify that story or other stories from a credible source?

[Yumie]

I always wondered if things people supposedly remembered from a "past life" might not be fragments of a dream that they can vaguely remember. I personally don't remotely believe in reincarnation.

[K. Ayato]

As UC and Syreth have already said, the concept of false memories is a complicated issue. We human beings are very gullible, and it's far too easy to accept an event that never happened anywhere in our lives did actually take place.

As for myself, I admit I have a good memory, but sometimes I still mix up events and details from childhood and such.

[Syreth]

The mind is one of the least understood parts of what makes us human.It is still very much unexplored in so many ways that there are areas we can't really explain or understand.Science has a lot of esploring of the human mind before we can truelly understand why such a concept as reincarnation even exists.

Personally, I like what Ravi Zacharias proposed about it. Reincarnation is a convenient worldview because it gives somewhat of a hope beyond this life. Someone who's an untouchable in a Hindu culture has the hope of coming back as something/someone better and eventually getting absorbed into Brahman (the impersonal, Hindu God-force).

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Personally, I like what Ravi Zacharias proposed about it. Reincarnation is a convenient worldview because it gives somewhat of a hope beyond this life. Someone who's an untouchable in a Hindu culture has the hope of coming back as something/someone better and eventually getting absorbed into Brahman (the impersonal, Hindu God-force).

You listened to it! *glomp*

[Mugendai]

That's fine and all but first off I should say, without going into refuting reincarnation more like others here, can you actually verify that story or other stories from a credible source?

Not from a completely credible source at the moment, mostly just heard them from a few books in the school library. However, as a note, that isn't why I believe in reincarnation. When I originally asked myself the question, "What is after death...?" (I've never been christian, I always found something odd about christianity.) I was in 3rd/4th grade, and riding on the school. Then an image popped into my mind, I came up with an image of an orange fox, in a dark green forest. And then somehow, that led me to come up with the idea of reincarnation. (I dont believe I had heard of it before, to be honest. I also didn't give it a name at that time. )

Also think about it this way: (Open your mind and ignore the bible for a few minutes) Its the way things generally work in nature, when something dies, something doesn't completely disapear. Its reused, Corpses are consumed and become a part of nature, its an endless cycle. So, assuming we have souls, then why couldn't it possibly be the same for souls?

[Peanut]

If reincarnation is true, that requires a "first birth". Where did this first birth come from?

Unless you affirm that your births can from from a different timeline, then that is different. Like you can die and be born during the time of the civil war or something.

I agree with Ryan... in fact... I really have nothing else to say since what I know about reincarnation comes from ravi... who ryan introduced me too. Anyway, correct me if I am wrong ryan, Ravi touches on this subject in his book Jesus Among Other Gods, but don't trust me on that, its been a while since I read it.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Also think about it this way: (Open your mind and ignore the bible for a few minutes)

A side note: it's quite inaccurate to call some christians close-minded (Heck of all the close minded people I know, most are skeptics) If we were close minded, would we even be having this discussion? Learning about other philosophies and religions is what we do (or I know I am doing) to have debates like these.

Its the way things generally work in nature, when something dies, something doesn't completely disapear. Its reused, Corpses are consumed and become a part of nature, its an endless cycle. So, assuming we have souls, then why couldn't it possibly be the same for souls?

Well the question is: Where did the soul come in the first place? From previous reincarnations? Well where did the "first soul" come from? Time + Matter + Chance = Your Brain and your soul does not add up. I believe that Macroevoltuion fails. Where does the soul fit in? You can't get something from nothing.

"But the soul is not material" Nethertheless, we can all affirm we each have a soul. The question is where did we get it. I believe that we got it from God, I am sure you think otherwise.

I believe this "first soul" is also our "last soul". Its given to us by God, and then once we die. Our soul goes back to where it came from. If you lend somebody 10 bucks, then a week later get 10 bucks back. There is equal harmony, as you are neutral, and your friend is neutral. Same kind of applies here.

[Nate]

Agreed with what Ryan said. I've noticed that most people who claim to be "open-minded" are the most closed-minded of all. Whenever someone says "Be open-minded" most of the time it means "Admit that you're wrong and I'm right."

At any rate, since we are Christians, we believe the Bible to be the word of God. And since God cannot lie, that means the Bible is truth. So to say "Ignore the Bible" to us means "Ignore what is true." And speaking personally, as a scientist, I cannot ignore what is true. Sorry.

[Mugendai]

A side note: it's quite inaccurate to call some christians close-minded (Heck of all the close minded people I know, most are skeptics) If we were close minded, would we even be having this discussion? Learning about other philosophies and religions is what we do (or I know I am doing) to have debates like these.

Actually, I wasn't saying that most christians are close minded. I meant that, I knew from when I wrote that, somebody would say the bible would answer the questions. (Primarily, the 'why couldn't it be the same for souls.' I had a feeling somebody would say something akin to 'because the bible says so.') I was pretty much just asking them not to immediately dismiss it, but think about it, read it, think about it. They dont have to change their belief, or question their faith, just think about and atleast hypothetically consider it.

Agreed with what Ryan said. I've noticed that most people who claim to be "open-minded" are the most closed-minded of all. Whenever someone says "Be open-minded" most of the time it means "Admit that you're wrong and I'm right."

Not at all. As I said above, I just wanted people to not immediately dismiss it, but think about it.

At any rate, since we are Christians, we believe the Bible to be the word of God. And since God cannot lie, that means the Bible is truth. So to say "Ignore the Bible" to us means "Ignore what is true." And speaking personally, as a scientist, I cannot ignore what is true. Sorry.

I primarily meant for people not to specifically say to anything/everything I said 'Because the bible says so.'

Well the question is: Where did the soul come in the first place? From previous reincarnations? Well where did the "first soul" come from? Time + Matter + Chance = Your Brain and your soul does not add up. I believe that Macroevoltuion fails. Where does the soul fit in? You can't get something from nothing.

Evolution. As life evolved, the mind evolved. Life gained sentience. Somewhere along the way, the soul was formed
Yes, at the moment not a very good theory. I haven't really thought too much about that aspect yet, though rest assured if and when I get a better theory I'll certainly mention it.

[Nate]

I was pretty much just asking them not to immediately dismiss it, but think about it, read it, think about it.

Okay, I'll read about it.

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. . . - Hebrews 9:27

Well, after reading about it and thinking about it, it's pretty clear that a person lives once, is judged by God, and then sent to their afterlife, leaving no room for reincarnation.

I primarily meant for people not to specifically say to anything/everything I said 'Because the bible says so.'

Why shouldn't we? As I stated before, as Christians, we believe the Bible is the truth, the words of a God incapable of lying.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. . . - 2 Timothy 3:16

Therefore, since all Scripture is God breathed, and therefore truth, saying "The Bible says so" is equal to saying "God says so," and since God is the ultimate authority, there isn't any wiggle room there.

As far as the evolution thing, I'm not gonna open that can of worms. Suffice to say, I obviously disagree 1,000%.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Its the way things generally work in nature, when something dies, something doesn't completely disapear. Its reused, Corpses are consumed and become a part of nature, its an endless cycle. So, assuming we have souls, then why couldn't it possibly be the same for souls?

Evolution. As life evolved, the mind evolved. Life gained sentience. Somewhere along the way, the soul was formed
Yes, at the moment not a very good theory. I haven't really thought too much about that aspect yet, though rest assured if and when I get a better theory I'll certainly mention it.

I belive your theory contradicts itself.

Isn't macroevolution a continuous process? Therefore are new souls being continued to be evolved?

If new souls are being continued to evolve, then where does that leave the notion of "Soul X leaving Person X when Person X dies and Soul X going into person Y when Person Y is born" Wouldn't person Y simply develop their own new soul Y? Then were does Soul X go?

On the flipside, if you said only the "first souls" were formed, and the evolution of souls have stopped. and those continued to go from person to person. How is that possible? The world population is growing. And if the "first souls" were at a set value. Lets say for arguments sake, 23. And the world has a population of 53. Then 30 people are soulless.

On another look: How can you tell if the "evolution of souls" has stopped or not? If it did stop, what prompted it to stop? How do we figure this out? We simply can't.

This leave the possibility that A. People who do not get a previous soul form a new soul. If so then that person begins their "first life" and therefore cannot have any sort of memory of their past life.

Or B. Reincarnation simply does not make sense. The soul was never evolved. We got it from a higher being.

[Nate]

I can't remember which comedian it was that was talking about reincarnation and said, "If you think about it, reincarnation can't possibly make any sense. At one point in time, there was, say, six guys. I don't want to say less or more because everyone has their own theory, but we can all agree that at one point in time, there was 6 guys. There was no one else. There must have only been six souls. Today there are 4 billion people on the planet. Where did these extra souls come from?"

[Puritan]

So, let me put this question to you all. Quite simply, how are we to determine the truth or falsehood of reincarnation? Currently the thread is oscillating between two views: the idea that memories of people show that they were reincarnated, and the opposing idea that these memories are false and that the Bible shows otherwise. Now, I do agree with the second view, but how can we prove or disprove these opposing theories? We cannot watch a soul, and we cannot see if it is reincarnated or not. At the same time, we cannot prove vague memories about the past show reincarnation, and to the Christian specific memories will likely be viewed as demonic in nature or chalked up to accident or the amazing human capacity to retain odd information. Impass, and one I don't see being solve by logic, but more by the working of the Holy Spirit if it is solved here.

And secondly, what is a soul? All our knowledge is second-hand, we have neither seen, touched, or tested a soul, so we have no idea first-hand what it is. If a soul is somehow organic (an idea I do, as a Christian, deny) then the idea that it is passed on from one being to another is not entirely odd. If a soul is not organic, how did it evolve? We have no evidence of some sort of spiritual evolution beyond hear-say, so how to prove it? Quite simply, I don't see this particular debate being solved by a logical conversation, too many of the ideas involved are beyond our ken for that. I think that to converse about it is interesting, but I think that the knowledge that this is incorrect comes from God, and no manner of logic can really prove one point or the other.

[shooraijin]

From the point of view of the administration, I think this is an excellent note to end the thread upon.