Nerd Culture: Sexist?

[Cognitive Gear]

That's an honest question. I'm not talking about individuals, or even smaller groups that you might hang out with. I'm talking about over arching nerd culture. I'm going to touch on a few examples from different parts of nerd culture:

-Let's start with something recent- In DC's recent universe reboot, some characters got costume makeovers, or in some cases history makeovers. But one stands out from the rest, Amanda Waller. She is the leader of a reforming group of supervillans. Here's a comparison of her old and new designs-

[INDENT]By itself, this isn't so bad. However, think about it in the greater context of comic books: all of the women are idealized sexually. Sure, the male superheroes aren't exactly realistic looking either, but there is one important distinguishing feature: Both are idealized by male standards, and are portrayed in different ways as a result. The women's costumes show as much skin as possible, and they often take poses that, if mimicked in real life, would make your grandfather blush.

This type of idealization spreads through much of nerd media- movies with strong heroines are more likely to focus on how hot that action heroine is, instead of how clever, smart, or strong she is. In Anime, it's a bit different, as there are certain female archetypes that give various kinds of fanservice.

Often times, it's not about how awesome the female character is. It's about how hot, cute, or "moe" the female character is.[/INDENT]



Moving on to a more generalized aspect of nerd culture: dating. Or more specifically, common attitudes present throughout, as can be evidenced by almost any nerd forum on the internet.
[INDENT]
"Nice guys". Let me be clear, I was once one of these, so I know that it's a very emotionally involved and can be personally sensitive. So please, if you fall into this category, don't be offended at what I am going to say, it's meant with the best intentions.

We all know how this goes: Nice Guy is friends with a wonderful lady. She decides to date a scumbag, the Nice Guy's heart is shattered and he wonders why women always choose the jerks over him. If only he could find a nice girl who would see him for who he really is on the inside.

That sounds innocent enough, and I'm sure that there are some guys who genuinely are just nice. However, a lot of the time here is an implicit expectation that is actually pretty self centered: That by being nice, by being there, by being a good friend, you deserve her. That the Nice Guy knows what is best for the girl, and the girl is incapable of making good decisions in her romantic life. Does that sound like a good way to look at women?

Often times, the Nice Guy gets burned, since things don't really tend to go the way he expects them to. While not all nerds, and not all relationship embittered nerds, were of this type, it certainly helps inform us on a recent event in nerd-dom. [/INDENT]

Alyssa Bereznak, tech writer for gizmondo, recently wrote about her (WARNING: FOWL LANGUAGE.) experiences in online dating.

[INDENT]Now, a number of changes have been made to it since she originally posted it, mostly in an attempt to make it less inflammatory. For example, she removed phrases like "champion dweeb", and removed direct accusations of lying.

To summarize what she wrote: She had a pleasant date with a guy she met on OKCupid, however, she discovered that this guy is the world champion of Magic: The Gathering. This was grounds, in her opinion, to stop dating him. Feeling deceived, since he didn't mention this fact on his profile, she went and made a rant post about the event.
Now, this was shallow of her. I won't dispute that. It's even hypocritical, as she writes for a tech blog. However, let's look at one of the responses the nerd community had:
They turned her into a meme. Here's an example:

Many, many of the others are filled with words that are not appropriate for CAA, to say the least. Most judge her based on appearance, or say that she should have stuck with the good looking, well-off man.

Twitter was flooded with tweets containing a similar message. The hypocrisy is obvious, even if played for lulz. [/INDENT]

So all of this leaves me with one question: Are girl nerds rare because they aren't interested in nerdy things, or because the culture is sexist? What do you think?

[LadyRushia]

Well, girl nerds really aren't that rare because if you go on DA you see about 5,000 14-year-old special snowflake gamer girls who are so ultra rare desu because they play with video games instead of dolls.

But the way nerd media portrays women can be annoying and infuriating. I don't know much about what happens in comics these days, but I do know that I rage because things like Suckerpunch exist. Sometimes, it's like if a woman isn't sexualized in a given story, then she's an underdeveloped character who obviously isn't as important as the male characters even if it's stated that she's smart, strong, etc. Of course, I attribute that primarily to bad writing skills because I've seen plenty of stories written by men that have female characters who aren't sexualized or second-rate.

As far as the culture, eh, I think it's pretty even as far as gender goes these days. Reception and treatment is a whole different issue. I recently found an article on geekfeminism.org that talked about cosplay issues for women.
http://geekfeminism.org/2011/08/23/geek-girls-and-the-problem-of-self-objectification/ Note: There may be some foul language, but I don't think there's any fowl language.

It's a good read, and the site has some other interesting articles.

I think another issue is that some fandoms are suspicious or critical of women being a part of them. Sometimes, if a girl says she's a fan of a certain show/book/game/whatevs, she'll get this attitude from people that's like "Oh, you're not a real fan. You're just a squealy girl and there's no way you can seriously like this." In other words, sometimes women are treated like we can't be serious fans of certain things.

Of course, that stereotype stems from fangirls who can't control themselves or speak intelligently about the things they like.

[Maledicte]

I know one of my nerd girl friends has experienced hanging out with her nerd guy friends, who bemoan the lack of nerd girls for them to date. While the whole time she's thinking "Hello? I have ovaries?" Simply because she doesn't have the face or body of a female video game character.

[mechana2015]

That's an honest question. I'm not talking about individuals, or even smaller groups that you might hang out with. I'm talking about over arching nerd culture. I'm going to touch on a few examples from different parts of nerd culture:

-Let's start with something recent- In DC's recent universe reboot, some characters got costume makeovers, or in some cases history makeovers. But one stands out from the rest, She is the leader of a reforming group of supervillans. Here's a comparison of her old and new designs-

[INDENT]By itself, this isn't so bad. However, think about it in the greater context of comic books: all of the women are idealized sexually. Sure, the male superheroes aren't exactly realistic looking either, but there is one important distinguishing feature: Both are idealized by male standards, and are portrayed in different ways as a result. The women's costumes show as much skin as possible, and they often take poses that, if mimicked in real life, would make your grandfather blush.

This type of idealization spreads through much of nerd media- movies with strong heroines are more likely to focus on how hot that action heroine is, instead of how clever, smart, or strong she is. In Anime, it's a bit different, as there are certain female archetypes that give various kinds of fanservice.

Often times, it's not about how awesome the female character is. It's about how hot, cute, or "moe" the female character is.[/INDENT]

I actually disagree with your acessment that the design of Amanda Waller isn't "so bad". I think it's a travesty and DC should be ashamed for taking a charachter who is, frankly, ICONIC for that original design (and who was seen in many DC based animated shows) and making her look like every other generic woman in comics. She's been one of the few women that DIDN'T have that sort of body type in American comics, and I think this is a step straight backwards from where they ought to be going. The change is a perfect example of how far the American comic market needs to go to grow up, and how much the 'hurr hurr purteh ladeez' attitude is still entrenched in, at the very least, DC comics. This is the kind of thing that just entrenches the steriotype that 'geek guys only like fake/2D women' and that women that aren't like that aren't welcome, at least in the american comics universe, and unfortunately the national media coverage that changes like this seem to manage to attract really doesn't help matters.

To summarize what she wrote: She had a pleasant date with a guy she met on OKCupid, however, she discovered that this guy is the world champion of Magic: The Gathering. This was grounds, in her opinion, to stop dating him. Feeling deceived, since he didn't mention this fact on his profile, she went and made a rant post about the event.
Now, this was shallow of her. I won't dispute that. It's even hypocritical, as she writes for a tech blog.

I think this unfortunately ties into the above steriotype. She dropped the hammer on this guy only because he's the world champion of MTG? Ouch.

I haven't read the article above, but it seems like this is some of the unfortunate backlash from the attitude expressed above, that Geek guys are inheritly immature or have something wrong with them due to their hobbies. It's incredibly unfortunate that the responses have gone on to re-enforce these damaging steriotypes.


I CAN tell you why he probably didn't mention his relation to the cardgame though. Same as me, he's afraid of recieving the stigma (and response) that women often reserve for people with hobbies like CCG's, miniature wargames, Tabletop RPG's, anime, american cartoons, comics or manga. I'd honestly probably not make a big deal about them, maybe avoid talking about them altogether if possible unless I met the girl at a geeky place. I might not even mention the others if she saw me at only one of them. Yeah I know this sounds lame, but really, I don't want those hobbies to define me, and the first impression they make is, frankly, terrible.

Unfortunately this response only enforces these feelings. Why be honest about painting miniatures or watching anime if that would cause a person to ignore that I also like a wide variety of music, dancing, hiking, skiing, and many other 'not nerdy' activities?

So all of this leaves me with one question: Are girl nerds rare because they aren't interested in nerdy things, or because the culture is sexist? What do you think?

I think nerd girls are "rare" because theres even more of a stigma to hide that than there is with guys. There are plenty of "nerdy" girls that wouldn't mention that aspect of themselves due to similar reasons the guy in that article doesn't post that he's MTG champ on dating sites. Getting pigeonholed due to one of what may be many interests, and the fact that many guys take the whole 'nerds don't know how to handle girls' thing as permission to leer or act inappropriately since they 'don't need to know better' doesn't help matters.

[Rewin]

but I do know that I rage because things like Suckerpunch exist.

I.... wait... what?!?!?!

/leaves to go watch Suckerpunch in confusion

[Maledicte]

SuckerPunch was....I understand what it was going for, but it was unsuccessful at delivering its message. I think if a filmmaker wants to address sexism in nerd culture, they should write interesting female characters that can be identified with, not make a razzle-dazzle meta-treatise that still uses women as props. (I still liked the film on a surface level)

now back to topic at hand.

[blkmage]

I don't think it's so much that nerd culture is overtly sexist than it isn't concerned about being offensive.

[raider~joseph]

Well...um....yeah I guess there is sexism.To be honest though there is always something corrupt in all popular cultures...and people will try to disprove this but nerdism is usually the cleanest...ok maybe not but its more fun.And occasionally the cleanest.(Depends on Lady Gaga's latest album.And only those who REALLY hate secular culture in the scope I do understand this.)I hate all pop stars with few exceptions and to be honest being a nerd in a pop culture world I tend to be able to find the flaws in their systems very easily.Finding flaws in my own system...much harder but I will admit that.This thread actually made me think.I gotta reconsider what every little action people take in nerdism means now.I didn't even think of sexism when watching sucker punch....to be honest I was thinking michael bay had a hand in this somehow...nah its too good...quinten tarintino...maybe?

[Htom Sirveaux]

The "Nerd Culture" is undoubtedly male-dominated. Sexism/objectification just kinda goes along naturally with it. If the "Anime Culture" was female-dominated, there may be somewhat less female characters with imposssible curves and massive bajongas, and more shirtless male characters with glistening, muscular frames, who seem written solely to answer to a female character's every beck and call.

[TopazRaven]

Hm, you know I never even really thought of any of that. This has certainly been an interesting thread to read. I've always considered myself a 'nerd', but it seems I'm not to deep in nerd culture. I'm not really a huge comic book fan, I prefer the movies based off comic books considering how lazy I am. I would really like to read some stuff for Captain America and The Avengers though eventually. Alright, I'll shut up now before I get anymore off topic...

[blkmage]

The "Nerd Culture" is undoubtedly male-dominated. Sexism/objectification just kinda goes along naturally with it. If the "Anime Culture" was female-dominated, there may be somewhat less female characters with imposssible curves and massive bajongas, and more shirtless male characters with glistening, muscular frames, who seem written solely to answer to a female character's every beck and call.

You've just described shoujo and BL manga.

[raider~joseph]

You've just described shoujo and BL manga.

Wait a sec he is right!

[ChristianKitsune]

I think that no matter what the "nerd culture" is run by it will always be just as idealized. If women ran it, they wouldn't want to depict what "real" women look like. They'd want to make people look "perfect." Or make their characters be so generic that any girl can project herself into it. (I'm looking at a particular "Vampire book" Author here.)

But back to the original subject. I personally feel that drawing more realistic bodies makes a character, far far more interesting than the run of the mill big boobs, tiny waist and great, long legs. Seriously.

I think really what the nerd culture is doing, (as disgraceful as it sounds) is trying to sell off its works with sex appeal. Also, If you're a nerdy guy, reading a comic book full of hot women, then maybe you won't be looked down upon by other guys. (Possibly?)

Just as in anime, American comics are pretty awful when it comes to depicting realistic characters, female or male. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone is going to convince those in the industry to change. People like this sort of stuff, for whatever reason.

So yes, the nerd industry is sexist, even when they probably don't even want to be called that.

Edit: I just clicked the link for this character, for the most part who ever played her in live action movies and tv shows is also a very skinny woman. So is it just the nerd culture that is sexist? Or is it socieity as a whole that can't live up to reality? Is it too big for them?

[Radical Dreamer]

On "what if the comic industry were run by women," I don't think that's really the issue here. Like Kitchan said, women can be just as guilty of bad character writing and objectification as men can. I think it's more about having good writers in general, whether they're men or women. A mark of truly good comics writing, in my opinion, would be to represent more than one body type, especially since they have such an easy opportunity to do so. That representation doesn't necessarily have to be the complete opposite of slim and sexy every time, but in the end it's much more three-dimensional to have well-written characters who also don't look like they've come out of a Barbie mold. I realize that the comics industry is mainly geared towards adolescent males, but that doesn't really mean it's right to perpetuate the idea that women should be objectified just because they like to see it.

[Seto_Sora]

I loled... especially about the date rage quit! That's soooo funnny!!!!! hahahaha! ok, so there are just way too many issues brought into the discussion to be broadly generalized as sexism within nerdism. First off, there are so many nerdy girls it ain't funny. And as many proudly proclaim it as men do the same. Also I know nerds who are successful with the ladies insofar they... ya know, I won't even go there. We got alot of stereotypes here that just give the picture our culture wants to see in "nerds". And that is where we can find sexism. Namely its because there is sexism in our culture so much so that you will see it come from any subgroup (yes even feminism, its just the roles are reversed there... and meybe not lol). On the whole, nerds aren't that sexist though but then again, our culture broadly generalizes many many people as nerds. You play table top games? You are a nerd. You read comic books? You are a nerd. You watch anime? You are a nerd. You play video games? You are a nerd. You play musical instrument? You are a nerd. You write poetry? You are a nerd. LOL Basically, nerdism is a catchall for anyone who has a hobby that isn't "normal". LOL
I laugh at America! he breaks down and sobs, tells me I shouldn't make fun of his obesity... says its natural. I laugh again and tell him to give me his lunch money.

[TopazRaven]

I laugh at America! he breaks down and sobs, tells me I shouldn't make fun of his obesity... says its natural. I laugh again and tell him to give me his lunch money.

That's not very nice you know! You leave America alone right now! Or else. >:D

[ChristianKitsune]

While I agree that you make very good points, some that I was trying to make myself. XD (about how society as a whole, and not just "nerds" are sexist)

I laugh at America! he breaks down and sobs, tells me I shouldn't make fun of his obesity... says its natural. I laugh again and tell him to give me his lunch money.

What exactly do you mean by this?

[TopazRaven]

What exactly do you mean by this?

I don't know what he meant either, but I decided to try and be a smarty pants and roll with it.

[Seto_Sora]

LOL it was funny, especially with the Hetalia avatar there topaz... i didn't even think of the anime when I wrote that.

But what I meant by that statement or tongue-in-cheek story was to make two points primarily with as few words as possible... ah, but shortcuts just never are that; short, are they? lol The story was two pronged in its points and its target audience were us intellectuals sitting at a distance, observing. The first point was to address a self-imposed problem or depreciation that we actively perpetuate. Like obesity, the problem starts when we give in to the ready available carnalities of our culture at large and continues to grow with our continual feeding thereof (there wouldn't be a need for erotic superheros if there weren't a market base). We thus go into denial, like American obesity claiming that its a disease instead of addressing the bad habitual practices that have lead it to where it is.
My second point was to the intellectual that we should instead of sitting and observing, if it is so offensive, ought to take more action than just point it out. In the brief, if you think there is a problem then do something about it. Don't laugh and perpetuate.

Does that make a little more sense? The first part of my post up yonder was to address the points brought up. The story was to address those of us who were discussing it. But it wasn't in the slightest to affront anyone. So I just hope any of the previous, honest posters know that I was not trying to point out anything personal, just address an issue I've discovered in myself especially.

[ABlipinTime]

I don't get it either.


Anyways...
It seems the matter has been pretty well settled with "It's culture acting normal", as in, culture without Christ just following the sinful nature as we should expect them to.

Then again...
*thinks of lots of things he could say and refuses to mention. now wouldn't you like to know...*

[Radical Dreamer]

[quote="Seto_Sora (post: 1506036)"]LOL it was funny, especially with the Hetalia avatar there topaz... i didn't even think of the anime when I wrote that.

But what I meant by that statement or tongue-in-cheek story was to make two points primarily with as few words as possible... ah, but shortcuts just never are that]

Your recent posts in this thread are written in a really roundabout and unnecessarily wordy (and potentially confusing) fashion--not simple for even an intellectual to follow without rolling her eyes. Just pointing out that that's probably not necessary.

Also, regardless of what you think of someone's eating or exercising habits (or thyroid disorders...? It's more than just a simple dietary choice for some people), it doesn't always come across as "funny," regardless of whether or not you were joking.

On the issue of this thread in particular, I think the first step in fixing a problem like this one is absolutely speaking up and pointing it out. Not everyone is in a position where they can change the way comics are drawn. Not everyone is going to illustrate comics or be an art director. While there certainly are a few of us who can change the way people are viewed in visual media, the real power comes through people who make up the readership. If the readers aren't happy, the direction is more likely to change. That isn't to say that it will, but if someone doesn't speak up and say something, make a complaint, or point out something wrong, it won't get fixed.

[Kerusso]

As was inferred from previous posts, sexism isn't just about character design, but character development. Sexism, however, can also apply to the males as well; just look at the TV Tropes examples for "The Unfair Sex," http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheUnfairSex or "Abuse Is Okay When It's Female On Male." http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbuseIsOkayWhenItIsFemaleOnMale. Sexism goes both ways.

[ShiroiHikari]

A tech writer for a website dumped a guy because he's the MTG world champ? What is this I don't even--

I agree that sexism definitely goes both ways. Yes, women and female characters get objectified and airbrushed in popular media, but so do men and male characters.

I also don't get the tendency of nerdy guys to hang out with a nerdy girl and then say things in front of her like "hurrrrr, I wish I could find a date". Are they trying to say that they want to find a woman who looks like [insert name of supermodel here] and also plays Magic: The Gathering? These guys need to adopt some more realistic standards. Either that, or girls should stop waiting around for guys to ask them out and just start doing the asking themselves.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I wouldn't date a girl who did nothing but play MTG... jeeze. That's a pretty uninteresting lifestyle/career/whatever. I mean if they did a whole lot of other stuff than great, we can play MTG once in a while or something... but as a career? Eh... pass.

In the brief, if you think there is a problem then do something about it. Don't laugh and perpetuate.

This is the same response people give to people who voice their criticisms about an injustice occurring in the world. But you're forgetting (or ignoring )the very fact that many injustices are fought against due to strength in numbers of said opposition. Spreading awareness is key to fixing problems as a lot of injustices occur simply due to the ignorance of the wider public.

Your recent posts in this thread are written in a really roundabout and unnecessarily wordy (and potentially confusing) fashion--not simple for even an intellectual to follow without rolling her eyes. Just pointing out that that's probably not necessary.

Also, regardless of what you think of someone's eating or exercising habits (or thyroid disorders...? It's more than just a simple dietary choice for some people), it doesn't always come across as "funny," regardless of whether or not you were joking.

On the issue of this thread in particular, I think the first step in fixing a problem like this one is absolutely speaking up and pointing it out. Not everyone is in a position where they can change the way comics are drawn. Not everyone is going to illustrate comics or be an art director. While there certainly are a few of us who can change the way people are viewed in visual media, the real power comes through people who make up the readership. If the readers aren't happy, the direction is more likely to change. That isn't to say that it will, but if someone doesn't speak up and say something, make a complaint, or point out something wrong, it won't get fixed.

Edit: Oh. It seems she covered it.

[ShiroiHikari]

Also I would like to clarify that the guy was MTG world champ 10 years ago and he has since moved on to other things (like being a hedge fund manager). He also made a lot of money playing poker, which, even though it's a card game as well, would be considered serious business by most people. So it wasn't just HURRR I PLAY MAGIC FOR A LIVING, MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC IS ALL I DO.

Also saying you wouldn't date somebody because of their career/job/major in college is pretty shallow, I think. If I had said to myself, "I don't want to date a PoliSci major; that's boring and uninteresting", then I wouldn't have my husband.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I don't think it's shallow at all. I think one's occupation (or at least, their desired occupation) reflects back to who the person is and what he or she deems as important in his or her life. Perhaps it's fine for other people, but I personally wouldn't want to date someone who does something that I find absolutely pointless for a living. It's simply an incompatibility with me. Of course if they did plenty of other things than sure, I'd weigh all of that and stuff.

Also: Managing a hedge fund. Might not be a fan of that either...