What can we do?

[Nate]

I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about this topic (though obviously people can PM me if they want to go further in it) but speaking as a Christian who is accepting of LGBTs, and knows other Christians who are the same...when we talk to people who are LGBT, and tell them we love them and don't think they're sinful or wrong, their response is not "Ha ha you Christians are stupid and can't even agree on your own doctrine!"

Their response is "Thank you. I wish more Christians were like you" or "I never knew that people like you existed, I wish I'd known you when I was younger." Their response is almost always one of relief and gratitude, not "your religion is divided and laughable." Honestly I haven't ever seen one person express that sentiment.

[Yamamaya]

I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about this topic (though obviously people can PM me if they want to go further in it) but speaking as a Christian who is accepting of LGBTs, and knows other Christians who are the same...when we talk to people who are LGBT, and tell them we love them and don't think they're sinful or wrong, their response is not "Ha ha you Christians are stupid and can't even agree on your own doctrine!"

Their response is "Thank you. I wish more Christians were like you" or "I never knew that people like you existed, I wish I'd known you when I was younger." Their response is almost always one of relief and gratitude, not "your religion is divided and laughable." Honestly I haven't ever seen one person express that sentiment.

You pretty much nailed it on the head bro. Homosexuals are very used to being condemned by Christians for being homosexual, thus when they see a Christian who doesn't condemn them and simply loves them, it's probably refreshing.

[Nate]

I've actually seen at least one of them say "I'd really like to go to your church." Thus proving that in the case of love vs. condemnation, love wins every time and really does bring people closer to God.

[bkilbour]

So... it's impossible for me to say to a homosexual individual "what you are doing is against the Bible, but I will love you anyway," huh?

I realize that most people don't believe it, but it's possible to tell someone that what they're doing is wrong, but not come down on them.
Also, it's bad for one to deny the existence of objective right and wrong outside of whether the actions hurt people or not. Just sayin'.

[Nate]

So... it's impossible for me to say to a homosexual individual "what you are doing is against the Bible, but I will love you anyway," huh?

I'd say for 99% of people, yes it is impossible. But I won't get into that discussion on this thread because this road has already been gone down in another thread, and the mods have made it pretty clear that they don't want this topic talked about in detail any more.

I realize that most people don't believe it, but it's possible to tell someone that what they're doing is wrong, but not come down on them.

I'd really like to someone actually do it, all I see is people that say they do it but don't.

Also, it's bad for one to deny the existence of objective right and wrong outside of whether the actions hurt people or not.

I don't see how it's bad at all. And I'm not denying the existence of objective right and wrong. I'm saying this. Things that help people are objectively right. Things that hurt people are objectively wrong. I don't see how any other standard can be applied to right or wrong.

[bkilbour]

Well, there is more than just a litmus test of how we affect people.
God decides what's right and wrong. It happens that He has made commands in both old and new testament Scripture hat have nothing to do with how we treat other people. The definition of right and wrong is not so narrow as to fit a postmodern outlook.

And yes, as much as you may think I don't, I do love those whom I talk to about these things. I think I established that a while ago.
And there are more people like me.

[Nate]

God decides what's right and wrong. It happens that He has made commands in both old and new testament Scripture hat have nothing to do with how we treat other people.

Bzzzzt. How quickly you forget Matthew 25.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father]And yes, as much as you may think I don't, I do love those whom I talk do about these things. I think I established that a while ago.[/QUOTE]
You established nothing, because political discussion is forbidden on these forums. And just judging by my limited interaction with you (which admittedly isn't a complete judge of a person) I find it difficult, if not impossible, to believe that you treat others of different lifestyles with love rather than condemnation. Sorry, but it seems to me that people that speak about such things with the conviction you do are constantly oppressing or discriminating against those types (which is of course not loving them).

[K. Ayato]

Guys, can it.

[bkilbour]

Can it, aye.
K.'s right.

[Nate]

Fair enough. I'd rather listen to Super Sentai Hero Getter on a constant loop than debate this any day. XD

[TopazRaven]

Well this has been...interesting.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

So... it's impossible for me to say to a homosexual individual "what you are doing is against the Bible, but I will love you anyway," huh?

I think homosexuality is wrong but I don't see why you need to mention it to someone you're trying to bring the Gospel to. If I tried to minister to someone who has premarital sex, am I going to bring it up when trying to share the Christ's love? They're a sinner, no better than I, so what sins they have committed are irrelevant when you try to talk to them.

I mean, I guess if you're really close with the person and you want to discuss whether it's right or wrong with them, that's cool, but there's no way you should just tell some random person you're trying to minister to that they're sinning. The "I love you anyways," doesn't really change that. If I constantly am a jerk to someone, but I tell them that I'm just kidding, that doesn't make it cool. It's still being a jerk.

[Nate]

Well this has been...interesting.

Only because you're not involved! D: Debating it is far less interesting than simply reading it...and more stressful.

But you know that from experience, I know. :p

[Htom Sirveaux]

What if we loved people in such a way that people saw a difference in us? Or is this no longer an option for us Christians anymore?
I mean, we're here arguing on how to love people. So I'm not sure how we'd accomplish anything.

Have you been reading the thread, bro? It's not that simple. I mean ideally, yes, it's a simple concept. "Love your neighbor." You've got the basic idea bang-on and I think most Christians do recognize this as our call and try, each in his own way, to carry it out. Problem is, people's ideas vary wildly and so you get the full range of the evangelism spectrum, everything from Crusades to soup kitchens. Jack Chick was narrow-minded to say the least, but he was evangelizing the best way he knew how. Please note that I'm not attempting to sanctify forms of evangelism that did/do way more harm than good. It's just that it's useless to ask "what if" when everyone has his own answer.

I know, I'm the last person you wanted to get a response from.

[Nate]

Jack Chick was narrow-minded to say the least, but he was evangelizing the best way he knew how.

Actually believe it or not, I agree with this. There are tracts Jack Chick produces that are a bit hokey or goofy, but are honest and good attempts to bring people to Christ. There's not MANY, I think I can count the number of genuinely good tracts on one hand, but let it not be said Jack Chick has never done any good whatsoever.

[TopazRaven]

Only because you're not involved! D: Debating it is far less interesting than simply reading it...and more stressful.

But you know that from experience, I know. :p

True that. I stay far away from debates latley because I know how easily I lose my temper. No one should have to face the wrath of the Topaz.

[shooraijin]

Or the Shooby, ahem.

We're moving on, right?

[Atria35]

Something I just read reminded me of this. I frequent a site where people who work for retail can share their bad (and some good) experiences. A person posted that they were talking about how they and another coworker were talking about how they love religious people who don't judge them for being aethests.

Then their Christian co-worker interrupted and said that their aetheism offended him. Called them disgusting.

Christians judge the non-religious just as harshly as they judge us. It's that the rest of us have to try and make up for that, and it's hard.