Over the weekend

[blkmage]

Pretend I quoted Bobtheduck's post here.

Your arguments are true, but they only hold for conservative Muslims, and even then your violence argument holds only for extremists, which there are even less of. So I think the gist of your argument boils down to the ratio of conservative Muslims to moderate and liberal Muslims in western countries. Even then, the proportion of children who end up as conservative as their parents, if much higher than other cultures, isn't likely to be anywhere near 100%.

Personally, my intuition tells me that the proportion of conservative Muslims isn't large enough to constitute any major cultural shift. Of course, this is based on the interactions I've had with these people.

And the issue of Sharia law has actually come up in Ontario in 2005. Ontario has a system where people can voluntarily go through faith-based arbitration rather than wait for the courts to settle their case. I believe it was typically used by Jews and Catholics. The law was under review and a report came out that suggested the continuation of the system. There was an Islamic institute that wanted to set up panels under this system using Sharia law.

Here's the thing: it would have affected only Muslims (since faith-based arbitration must be voluntary). The strongest and most immediate opposition came from Muslims. In the end, it was rejected and all is fine now.

I think it'll take either a ludicrously long time (such that it's pointless to worry about anytime in the near future) or an incredible number of very conservative Muslims who are adamant and intentional about changing things in actual law (remember that faith-based arbitration was voluntary only) and sustaining that growth, which seems incredibly unlikely to me.

[Nate]

Right, I think we need to remember that any attempts to say "But the Koran says to kill heathens!" can be used right back in our faces by the fact that the Bible says basically the same thing in the OT. Yes, yes, I know, Jesus preached love and all that, but the fact remains that the OT is fairly supportive of the whole killing thing.

Let's not forget things like the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Trials as well. Point being Christians don't have any room to throw stones when it comes to this kind of thing.

Also what about context? Everyone quotes verses from the Koran saying "SEE IT'S BAD" but those verses could be out of context. We all here should be familiar with quoting verses out of context, yes? I can safely say I have never read the whole Koran, and don't know the context of any verses people quote from it. Nor am I a scholar versed in what the Koran means. If we as Christians have other people who go to college and take theology to understand our own holy book, how can we hope to understand someone else's?

Same deal when it comes to the Sharia law thing. How many times do Christians say they want the Bible taught in schools? Or how about (falsely) claiming that the Ten Commandments are the basis for our laws? How many Christians want laws based solely on Christian doctrine?

Jesus said to take the plank out of our own eye before we try to remove the speck from our brother's, and I think that's very relevant here.

[Ante Bellum]

Huh, yeah. I've been called a murderer before, no joke.

[KhakiBlueSocks]

Also what about context? Everyone quotes verses from the Koran saying "SEE IT'S BAD" but those verses could be out of context. We all here should be familiar with quoting verses out of context, yes? I can safely say I have never read the whole Koran, and don't know the context of any verses people quote from it. Nor am I a scholar versed in what the Koran means. If we as Christians have other people who go to college and take theology to understand our own holy book, how can we hope to understand someone else's?

[font="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="4"][color="blue"]
QFT.

All that's missing is the scene with the laboring mothers lined up outside a maternity ward with the American flag waving in the background with the words "Pop out two for America!" in Times New Roman font. [/color][/SIZE][/font]

[Doubleshadow]

I asked former CAA member Sticksabuser, who is from Lebanon, to reply to Bobtheduck's post since Sticks would know.

"Lebanon in particular stands as a reminder of the result of this sort of thing, being at one time a mostly Christian culture that was in strong support of religious freedom. They eventually got overwhlemed by Muslims who believed the country should be run under sharia. Overrun and moved into the streets or in hiding and murdered."


Uh... no... blkmage did a good job in his reply. The thing is in Lebanon there are very very few evangelical christians (though the number is growing thanks to their activity in evangelism and missions). Most are Catholic, Maronite (pretty much a branch of Catholicism), and Orthodox among other sub-sects. Then there are sunni muslims and shiite muslims, and there's a pretty complicated party system going on, so its not just Muslim versus Christian.

And when it comes to persecution, it mainly happens to those who convert, whether from traditional Christian sects or Islam (yes, "Christians" persecute Christians). I myself converted from Islam when I was in Lebanon, and saw that first hand.

And there's much more to it. Bottom line, there is a distribution of power that is instituted by the constitution of Lebanon, and that would be very very hard to change. AND, for now, Lebanon is peaceful socially, though politically slightly volatile (but then again it has always been that way since its inception, i.e. 1943).

You can Quote me and post this in CAA as my account has been deactivated.

Oh and BTW, the majority of sunni muslims are opposed to radical groups like Hizbullah, as well as some shiites...

[Shilohan ninja]

Why oh why does everyone forget the SECOND half of that command? "Be fruitful and increase in number]fill the earth and subdue it.[/b]"

Unless you count Antarctica, which would be impossible to sustain life on in large numbers, we've pretty much accomplished that.

Now I'm not going to throw out numbers and I'm not going to say "This is what is happening now!" However, there does come a point at which a population on the planet large enough would become unsustainable. Food resources aren't infinite, and it takes a lot of time and money to grow food...not to mention the costs of shipping that food to other areas and the challenges of keeping it fresh while you do.

Point being we already have people with very little food with our current population. Now yes, I realize, reducing the population in America isn't going to magically transport food to third world countries. As well, usually the reasons for food shortages and famine are due to political or social climate, rather than a real lack of food (usually it's someone in a position of power blocking food from being distributed).

Still, I think it says something that we can't even provide for the population we have now, and yet it's somehow a good idea to have even more children? Not to mention the side-effect of even more trash, which we don't know what to do with the amounts of garbage we have already! Landfills only can be so big you know, and burning garbage consumes massive amounts of energy, which is expensive.

Point taken. Provision of food is a problem, I won't discount that, it's a perfectly legit fact in these trying times. But why do we have to focus solely on the negative? Don't get me wrong, I hate having things suger-coated and watered down, but there's also more than just the signs of doomsday around us, ya'know. Besides, hasn't God said in his word that he will provide for us if we ask him? Did he not say "ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you"? Perhaps we need to keep seeking God and asking him for his provision, for us and those we see around us (or don't see as the case may be).

Now, I have yet to touch on the issue of them saying "We can't have one million people filling two million jobs!" Um, have they even read a newspaper in the last YEAR? The unemployment rate is sky-high! There AREN'T any jobs! Why? Because our beloved capitalism loves to ship jobs overseas to other countries because it's cheaper than hiring workers in our own country (note: I know this is more the problem of greedy CEO's than capitalism itself, I'm just being dramatic and silly).

My point is that the number of jobs available is decreasing, or else we wouldn't have so much unemployment. Thus, having more kids would WORSEN the problem, with hundreds of thousands (or millions) of citizens being unable to find employment. In fact, that's kind of what's happened now, and part of the reason our birth rate is declining. Kids are expensive! If you're holding down a job paying 8 bucks an hour you can't afford to raise more than maybe one kid. If that.

I agree with most of what you just said there; yes, there is a an ungodly amount of unemployment, not just here either, and, yes, it is harder to raise a kid on an $8 an hour salary because of CEO's with too much power. The answer to this particular problem is somehow reaching those CEO's and swaying them to rethink such radical business decisions (either that, or kicking 'em outta office and returning to our economic roots in the small business market; [SIZE="2"]that's where most jobs seem to be these days[/SIZE])

Everyone else has touched on the other absurd and downright racist things this video says ("Muslims is EVIL! Immigrants are the devil!") so I won't touch on those except to say that I agree with everyone else that such comments are absurd and downright racist, akin to the whole "Black people will steal our white women and corrupt them!" thing the KKK has going on.

I see that, too. This, however, is a matter of religious and not a racial discrimination, I do agree, the parallels are interestingly, if frighteningly, similar. But then we come back to the whole issue of gays and lesbians trying to draw the same parallel for sexual freedom and that just gets messy. I love muslims and gays and while I don't agree with everything they stand for, this kind of fearmongering propoganda against them is wrong and very unloving.

I agree that children are a blessing, but it's not a blessing for everyone. Being poor is a blessing. Oh yeah, and let's not forget, "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds..." So should we wake up every morning and say "Man I sure hope my family dies or my house burns down or I get beaten and raped on the way to work because trials are a blessing!" Yes, they're a blessing in that they develop our faith and help us to persevere, but it's not something we should wish upon ourselves.

So what I'm saying is that children being a blessing is true, and that's great, but not everybody wants it. In fact I hate kids, I'm never going to have them, and I'm glad for it. Likewise, we need to remember that women have lives and roles too, and we shouldn't see women as mere "baby factories" and the thought of a woman literally being pregnant for most of her life just seems distasteful to me whether you think children are a blessing or not. I mean being pregnant isn't fun I'm sure, even if you love kids.

First of all on this point, I think likening having a baby to being raped, beaten or killed is a very unfair compairison. True that it's not always something that's initially wanted, but a baby isn't a curse or anything and they were part of God's perfect design for us. This is not to say I'm promoting that all women have babies the rest of their lives, that's A.) illogical B.) irresponsible & C.) downright impossible in many cases (not to mention it can possibly get unhealthy at some point or another). I'm only saying that it's a blessing for those prepared for it. If God wants you to have kids, he'll make a way for it to happen. I don't want to force this on anyone, I just want to to make sure the whole truth and nothing but the truth is made known about it. I don't want this to be a topic that divides us on the forum. I merely saw it as a way to get to know your stances on the subject matter being discussed.

Finally as far as this "Culture wars" thing going on, "We need to have babies to keep America pure!" (I won't get further into that, too easy to draw needless comparisons), remember the only kingdom that will last eternally is God's Kingdom. America is not that kingdom, and it will fall one day, as has every empire before it. Trying to "save" it is needlessly pointless, as if it is what God has decreed shall happen, then that's that.

I don't support the whole "Culture wars" thing, as you so put it, either and I would agree with you that we should not be thinking solely of America. If anything, we need to continue to love the people around us unconditionaly, without thought of race, religion, politics or sexual preference. We should be more like Jesus and less like the world around us that focuses on stereotypes and social prejudices.

I really like how the discussion's been going, everyone. Let's try not to 1up each other, though, with facts and figures and ideologies. It's a discussion, not a contest to see who has the better speaking points.

Much love,

-SN-

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Also what about context? Everyone quotes verses from the Koran saying "SEE IT'S BAD" but those verses could be out of context. We all here should be familiar with quoting verses out of context, yes? I can safely say I have never read the whole Koran, and don't know the context of any verses people quote from it. Nor am I a scholar versed in what the Koran means. If we as Christians have other people who go to college and take theology to understand our own holy book, how can we hope to understand someone else's?

As far as I know, there are major sections of contemporary Islam which strongly differ in theological standings. While Christian extremists do exist, they tend to be small in number. Islamic extremists on the other hand tend to be more concentrated and larger in number as well, hence there is much disparity within Islam. But that being said I am far from being a scholar on Islam. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

For the most part, the more influential and global spread of Islam seems to be those that are apart from the more violent and hateful group.

[Bobtheduck]

I asked former CAA member Sticksabuser, who is from Lebanon, to reply to Bobtheduck's post since Sticks would know.

"Lebanon in particular stands as a reminder of the result of this sort of thing, being at one time a mostly Christian culture that was in strong support of religious freedom. They eventually got overwhlemed by Muslims who believed the country should be run under sharia. Overrun and moved into the streets or in hiding and murdered."


Uh... no... blkmage did a good job in his reply. The thing is in Lebanon there are very very few evangelical christians (though the number is growing thanks to their activity in evangelism and missions). Most are Catholic, Maronite (pretty much a branch of Catholicism), and Orthodox among other sub-sects. Then there are sunni muslims and shiite muslims, and there's a pretty complicated party system going on, so its not just Muslim versus Christian.

And when it comes to persecution, it mainly happens to those who convert, whether from traditional Christian sects or Islam (yes, "Christians" persecute Christians). I myself converted from Islam when I was in Lebanon, and saw that first hand.

And there's much more to it. Bottom line, there is a distribution of power that is instituted by the constitution of Lebanon, and that would be very very hard to change. AND, for now, Lebanon is peaceful socially, though politically slightly volatile (but then again it has always been that way since its inception, i.e. 1943).

You can Quote me and post this in CAA as my account has been deactivated.

Oh and BTW, the majority of sunni muslims are opposed to radical groups like Hizbullah, as well as some shiites...

Ok. I can't argue against someone with more firsthand knowledge...

I had heard serious horror stories (from adults who were children at the time) of things that had gone on there, and the difference between their early childhood (basically the kind of life you'd expect being middle class living in the US) and when things changed for them (Bombings and being sent into hiding) but maybe things have gotten better there recently.

I said I would bow out of the other parts of the conversation, and I'm holding to that. Except... I NEVER ONCE SAID I AGREED WITH THIS STUPID VIDEO. So, if you're gonna argue with me, don't bring up the video. Actually use my OWN points. Oh, and actually read what I say, so you don't shoot your mouth off about something when I've already answered that topic.

[Nate]

there's also more than just the signs of doomsday around us, ya'know.

Depending on if you believe the current events of the world are signs of doomsday. I'm not quite convinced, as I'm sure that people during the Dust Bowl/Great Depression and World War II thought the same thing, that the end times were clearly upon us. Sixty years later, we're still here.

Besides, hasn't God said in his word that he will provide for us if we ask him? Did he not say "ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you"? Perhaps we need to keep seeking God and asking him for his provision, for us and those we see around us (or don't see as the case may be).

This verse to me seems to be speaking more of spiritual truths than physical needs, considering that the verses surrounding it are about judging others and Christians being identifiable by their fruit. I'm fairly sure, though I am not a theologian, that He is talking more about seeking the kingdom of God, and knocking on the door being accepting Him as Savior. This would fit in well with the verse from the chapter immediately before this one, where he says "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

Even if you take it to mean physical needs like food and water, then it seems to me to fall into the "God is a genie who grants wishes" mentality. I don't think you'll find anyone on the planet who has received everything they asked God for. Likewise, the fact of the matter is that there ARE Christians who go hungry, who have no home to live in, and live in horrible poverty. How does this fit in with God saying He will provide for us? I think that's far outside the scope of this thread, but I will just say we live in a broken, fallen world.

Ultimately it seems at best irresponsible and at worst foolish to say "We can have as many kids as we want, who cares about food supply!" God gave us common sense so that He doesn't have to clean up our messes. He'll provide for us sure, but it probably isn't the smartest idea to do as we please and say "Let's not worry about it, God will take care of it!"

(either that, or kicking 'em outta office and returning to our economic roots in the small business market)

CEOs usually don't mind being kicked out because so many of them have the oft-mentioned "golden parachutes" that give them huge bonuses and severance if they're removed from their job...again, at the expense of the rank and file workers. Getting rid of those CEOs wouldn't do much to solve the problem, and let's be honest, do you really think the replacements would be any different? How's the saying go, "Power corrupts?" The sad truth is most people if they're given a choice between giving themselves a huge pay cut and helping out others or saying "Yeah I deserve another 10,000 dollar raise" are going to pick the latter.

I see that, too. This, however, is a matter of religious and not a racial discrimination,

Well, the problem is they clearly mentioned Latino immigrants being part of the "problem" in the video, which is pretty racist. "Latino" isn't a religion last I checked.

But then we come back to the whole issue of gays and lesbians trying to draw the same parallel for sexual freedom and that just gets messy.

I don't see any parallels there at all, no matter how hard I strain, but it's out of the focus of this thread anyway (and yes, it's a messy subject, I'd love to start a flame war about that one but let's keep it civil :p).

First of all on this point, I think likening having a baby to being raped, beaten or killed is a very unfair compairison.

Okay, granted. That was a bad example and I'll take it back. Sorry about that. So then let's use a better example, one that can't be likened to violence, perhaps.

Singleness. There are those, in fact, who are to remain single and focus entirely on God in their lives. Paul praises them, saying they have nothing to distract them from living their lives totally devoted to the Lord. Obviously this is a wonderful blessing, and to be admired. So if being single is a great blessing, as Paul states, then all Christians should remain completely single and never get married or have children, right? After all it's a blessing!

As you can see, this wouldn't work out so well as then Christianity would kind of die off, without any kids and all. Being single is a blessing, but it isn't a blessing for everyone. Some people are very social and get a lot of energy from being around people, and don't like being alone. Such people would HATE to get such a blessing, because it would be annoying and stressful to them, wouldn't it? They would say "Man I sure hope I don't have this singleness gift, because it would suck!"

This seems to be a good comparison to how babies are a blessing then, but those of us who hate babies don't want that kind of blessing.

So hopefully this works out better. XD

[Shilohan ninja]

Depending on if you believe the current events of the world are signs of doomsday. I'm not quite convinced, as I'm sure that people during the Dust Bowl/Great Depression and World War II thought the same thing, that the end times were clearly upon us. Sixty years later, we're still here.

Good point. I'm not usually one to don the prophet-o'-doom charade because I usually don't make it a point to think I've got God and the world all figured out. Guess I got a little ahead of myself.

This verse to me seems to be speaking more of spiritual truths than physical needs, considering that the verses surrounding it are about judging others and Christians being identifiable by their fruit. I'm fairly sure, though I am not a theologian, that He is talking more about seeking the kingdom of God, and knocking on the door being accepting Him as Savior. This would fit in well with the verse from the chapter immediately before this one, where he says "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

Even if you take it to mean physical needs like food and water, then it seems to me to fall into the "God is a genie who grants wishes" mentality. I don't think you'll find anyone on the planet who has received everything they asked God for. Likewise, the fact of the matter is that there ARE Christians who go hungry, who have no home to live in, and live in horrible poverty. How does this fit in with God saying He will provide for us? I think that's far outside the scope of this thread, but I will just say we live in a broken, fallen world.

Ultimately it seems at best irresponsible and at worst foolish to say "We can have as many kids as we want, who cares about food supply!" God gave us common sense so that He doesn't have to clean up our messes. He'll provide for us sure, but it probably isn't the smartest idea to do as we please and say "Let's not worry about it, God will take care of it!"

I'll give you that. If I came across as implying a "genie-in-a-bottle" view of God, I apologize, that's totally not what I was trying to say. While I will agree that there are Christians (as well as others) suffering from thirst and hunger around the world, it doesn't mean miracles can't happen like they did over two thousand years ago, but again I stress that God is by no means required to give us everything we ask for (on a side note, though, he did say that if we ask him in faith to provide for our needs, he will provide acording to his good will. This, of course, may not always take the form of what we might expect, however, as God knows best and we are certainly not God, which in and of itself is a whole other discussion entirely). Sorry to send us on such a long and winding rabbit trail. I wasn't expecting anything this intense.

CEOs usually don't mind being kicked out because so many of them have the oft-mentioned "golden parachutes" that give them huge bonuses and severance if they're removed from their job...again, at the expense of the rank and file workers. Getting rid of those CEOs wouldn't do much to solve the problem, and let's be honest, do you really think the replacements would be any different? How's the saying go, "Power corrupts?" The sad truth is most people if they're given a choice between giving themselves a huge pay cut and helping out others or saying "Yeah I deserve another 10,000 dollar raise" are going to pick the latter.

I see your point. I just wish things could be different, but, of course, this world doesn't always seem to care what we want, so we must deal with the present problems as best we can. *SIGH*

Well, the problem is they clearly mentioned Latino immigrants being part of the "problem" in the video, which is pretty racist. "Latino" isn't a religion last I checked.

I noticed that too, and though I'm trying to focus specifically on the main point of the false illusion of evangelism through procreation, I will acknowlege and agree whole-heartedly with your perfectly valid point here. I don't, however, remember latinos being mentioned as part of the problem. The way the video worded it, it's only because of latino immigration that the U.S. is currently able to make the "minimum birth rate required to sustain a culture". It does, however, refer to them as different from other Americans like they're less than American in much the same way african and asian-americans have been in years past, which is wrong.

I don't see any parallels there at all, no matter how hard I strain, but it's out of the focus of this thread anyway (and yes, it's a messy subject, I'd love to start a flame war about that one but let's keep it civil :p).

I guess that all depends on how you look at it (and thank you for supressing the urge).

Okay, granted. That was a bad example and I'll take it back. Sorry about that. So then let's use a better example, one that can't be likened to violence, perhaps.

Singleness. There are those, in fact, who are to remain single and focus entirely on God in their lives. Paul praises them, saying they have nothing to distract them from living their lives totally devoted to the Lord. Obviously this is a wonderful blessing, and to be admired. So if being single is a great blessing, as Paul states, then all Christians should remain completely single and never get married or have children, right? After all it's a blessing!

As you can see, this wouldn't work out so well as then Christianity would kind of die off, without any kids and all. Being single is a blessing, but it isn't a blessing for everyone. Some people are very social and get a lot of energy from being around people, and don't like being alone. Such people would HATE to get such a blessing, because it would be annoying and stressful to them, wouldn't it? They would say "Man I sure hope I don't have this singleness gift, because it would suck!"

This seems to be a good comparison to how babies are a blessing then, but those of us who hate babies don't want that kind of blessing.

So hopefully this works out better. XD

I see your point and I guess that's what I was trying to convey, though it seems I did a poor job representing my point up front so, I apologize for that as well. Yes, this comparison is a bit more fair imho. Thanks for keeping it clean for the most part. This has been a very eye-opening experience, for me at least, and I hope you got something out of it, too. Well done, everyone who contributed.

Godbless, all,

-SN-

[Radical Dreamer]

Even if you take it to mean physical needs like food and water, then it seems to me to fall into the "God is a genie who grants wishes" mentality. I don't think you'll find anyone on the planet who has received everything they asked God for. Likewise, the fact of the matter is that there ARE Christians who go hungry, who have no home to live in, and live in horrible poverty. How does this fit in with God saying He will provide for us? I think that's far outside the scope of this thread, but I will just say we live in a broken, fallen world.

Ultimately it seems at best irresponsible and at worst foolish to say "We can have as many kids as we want, who cares about food supply!" God gave us common sense so that He doesn't have to clean up our messes. He'll provide for us sure, but it probably isn't the smartest idea to do as we please and say "Let's not worry about it, God will take care of it!"

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink]?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Clearly, this verse is relating to physical needs--food, clothing, etc. So no, God is certainly no genie who grants our wishes, and certainly not when our wants go against His will. But God absolutely does provide for our needs; perhaps not in the method or capacity that we would like, but He does provide. He's provided for my family many times when we were experiencing financial trouble, and I've seen the same kind of provision in the lives of others who are struggling. Yes, some people do live in poverty, but just because they don't have the pleasures and conveniences that we have doesn't mean God isn't with them and providing for them every step of the way.

I'm pleased with how this discussion is going so far, by the way! Please continue to keep it civil!

[F.M Disciple]

I understand that Islam is a dominate religion in the middle east, but It's not like every single person in the middle east is a Muslim. In fact a decent number of immigrants from the middle east are Christians and Jews who either emigrated from those regions during politically unstable times. Or for other reasons like economic opportunities.

It's interesting how that fact wasn't brought up during this video.

[Nate]

Oddly enough, I have a friend I talk to on MSN who is a Muslim. She never really knew a whole lot about me, but she was explaining something and goes "Oh, well, you might not understand if you're an atheist."

I responded that I wasn't an atheist, that I was Christian.

Her response was "Oh..." and she logged off a bit later. I can't help but wonder if she's a bit frightened of me now, if she thinks I'm a militant Christian calling for Muslim heads on a platter and the destruction of the middle east (I can't say her country, since she lives in the UK).

I don't think this is actually the case, because I've known she was a Muslim since I started talking to her, and if I'd had a problem I wouldn't have been friends with her for so long.

It does make me think though. I bet a lot of Muslims are just as afraid of us as some Christians are afraid of them. We point to suicide bombers, they point to the Crusades. We read the news articles about terrorists kidnapping soldiers, they read the news articles about soldiers abusing civilians. It's almost like we have more in common than people like to think...